Thread: Help me with a logical understanding of this very emotional issue...

Well, so far there hasn't been much discussion based on logic...though I've seen it's possible. The only presentation of a logical argument (though it was coupled with an emotional one) was presented by Pale Rider, so I didn't even get to hear both sides of the issue. Most folks ignored my original premise and simply posted whatever they wanted to.

Thanks, Pale Rider, for at least making note of my actual premise, and giving me your view on the subject, even though you'd previously stated that the facts were not up for discussion. I'm still hoping (though fruitlessly, it looks like) that a few others will respond on topic.

Originally Posted by EldonG

Well, so far there hasn't been much discussion based on logic...though I've seen it's possible. The only presentation of a logical argument (though it was coupled with an emotional one) was presented by Pale Rider, so I didn't even get to hear both sides of the issue. Most folks ignored my original premise and simply posted whatever they wanted to.

Thanks, Pale Rider, for at least making note of my actual premise, and giving me your view on the subject, even though you'd previously stated that the facts were not up for discussion. I'm still hoping (though fruitlessly, it looks like) that a few others will respond on topic.

Why? With the self profession that you have a "preconceived" ideology, why would anyone waste any time or effort in attempting to sway someone that just presented retort..that all such retorting is useless? Its no wonder you are confused. What you are declaring...in effect, "Come on people, post some conversation so that I can personally attack any retort that does not fit into my preconceived idea that I had in the first place.....but, I will be fair, I will charge others with being illogical, and I will personally attack them with ad hominem rhetoric.

Excuse me, do you see an attack here?
Maybe you don't understand 'on the fence'. My point is...I really *don't* have a preconceived ideology. I see issues with both sides. The abortion debate is one where I have trouble divorcing myself from the emotional aspects of it.

While I tend to lean pro-choice anytime a woman has problems, the concept of abortion as birth control flatly pisses me off. It's a very frustrating issue, and I don't have a good answer.

Eldon. You think we're all glorified chemicals.

Why do you care one way or the other what happens to another hunk of carbon atoms and electons firing off seemingly randomly ect?

What proof are you needing?

Originally Posted by EldonG

Excuse me, do you see an attack here?
Maybe you don't understand 'on the fence'. My point is...I really *don't* have a preconceived ideology. I see issues with both sides. The abortion debate is one where I have trouble divorcing myself from the emotional aspects of it.

While I tend to lean pro-choice anytime a woman has problems, the concept of abortion as birth control flatly pisses me off. It's a very frustrating issue, and I don't have a good answer.

No of course not....'LACK OF LOGIC"..."I'm smart,everyone else is stupid, as evidenced...YOUR PREMISE, is all that's important, regardless of the fact YOUR PREMISE might just be the one that lacks logic and is flawed".....THIS COULD NEVER BE.....I AM A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING WITH ALL THE SMART PEOPLE...NO? No attack there. You contorted like a circus freak in order to pat yourself on the back. Just how gullible do you think people are? You act just like all other pompous liberal asses....ALL THAT MATTERS IS "SELF".

Originally Posted by Victor Grey

Eldon. You think we're all glorified chemicals.

Why do you care one way or the other what happens to another hunk of carbon atoms and electons firing off seemingly randomly ect?

What proof are you needing?

You dramatically over simplify me.

How can someone strongly believe in human rights, without believing in tha value of human life? I may be an atheist, but MLK was a hero of mine as a child, and I respect greatly what he did.

This issue is about human rights...on both sides. It's a very difficult issue that strikes at that very thing that makes us us...our very lives.

Originally Posted by bluedog

No of course not....'LACK OF LOGIC"..."I'm smart,everyone else is stupid, as evidenced...YOUR PREMISE, is all that's important, regardless of the fact YOUR PREMISE might just be the one that lacks logic and is flawed".....THIS COULD NEVER BE.....I AM A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING WITH ALL THE SMART PEOPLE...NO. No attack there. Just how gullible do you think people are? You act just like all other pompous liberal asses....ALL THAT MATTERS IS "SELF".

Excuse me?

I asked for a logical discussion because I know how emotional an issue this is. I know how it tears at me, from both sides. I know that giving in to that emotion just means I don't think as clearly. You call that an attack?

Originally Posted by EldonG

You dramatically over simplify me.

How can someone strongly believe in human rights, without believing in tha value of human life? I may be an atheist, but MLK was a hero of mine as a child, and I respect greatly what he did.

This issue is about human rights...on both sides. It's a very difficult issue that strikes at that very thing that makes us us...our very lives.

Still true. Thats not the issue at all however. Digression.

Well, if anything, think of the implications of one vs. the other.

If abortion is illegal and looked down upon, what implications does that mean for the future?

If it is endorsed and allowed, what are the possible implications of that?

Good way to judge morality imo is simply this: Judge morality by people's Reactions, not simply by their actions.

Would you/another want to be aborted? Would you/another want to be prevented from one? Why need one?
Alot of factors come in.

I waffled on the issue myself, for a long time.

Originally Posted by Victor Grey

Still true. Thats not the issue at all however. Digression.

Well, if anything, think of the implications of one vs. the other.

If abortion is illegal and looked down upon, what implications does that mean for the future?

If it is endorsed and allowed, what are the possible implications of that?

Good way to judge morality imo is simply this: Judge morality by people's Reactions, not simply by their actions.

Would you/another want to be aborted? Would you/another want to be prevented from one? Why need one?
Alot of factors come in.

I waffled on the issue myself, for a long time.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I keep looking at both sides, and thinking about those things...and I'm waffling. There must be a common ground, somewhere, but I'm at a loss as to where.

Originally Posted by thedocy

i don't think it matters what species it is untill its alive...

Upon what credible scientific evidence do you base your belief that an unborn, at any stage of development is not alive; or is it merely an article of your faith?