Well for all, minus secularists, that is the ultimate punishment.

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PROUDLY REVILED BY THE LOONY LEFT SINCE 1999!!!!

"I done told you once you son a bitch I am the best that has ever been."

you liberals make me sick to my stomach.

Then maybe we should strike all laws that concern killing of one human being by another from the books.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

Does anyone have any logical reason not to have a law against abortion other than some people might break it.

__________________
"Oh great and powerful funk!"-OkhamsRazor
"One would be insane to debate with you. You are another great debator."- somtfs

Everyone who supported slavery was free.
Everyone who supports abortion was born.
And that my friend is how oppression works.

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Isn't that enough? You probably don't remember a time when abortion wasn't legal. Do you have any idea how many young women, poor mothers, etc. were maimed, made sterile and killed when it was illegal?

YOU CAN"T STOP PEOPLE FROM MAKING STUPID CHOICES, you can't legislate away the fog of desperation that usually precedes such a decision. People smoke, they do drugs, they drive too fast drunk without a seatbelt, and they get abortions. As we have seen over and over, all we can do as a legislative body is to try to make things as safe as possible, provide as much counseling as possible without infringing on their rights, and hope that we have taught them well enough to make the right decisions. So, we make cars safer, remove smoking to non public areas, treat the drug users, and provide a safe last resort for desperate women.

It should be up to the community, chuches, parents etc. to give our children the tools they need to avoid the situation all together.

For anyone to suggest that it isn't a horrible, agonizing decision to come to for everyone involved, they would be lying. No matter how traumatic that loss is, the loss of your 15 year old daughter to a desperate choice in a dirty hotel room is absolutely devastating. And unacceptable.

So once again we are at the crossroads of comprimise... good luck to us all...

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S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

I do. And the answer is fewer than die today from legal abortion. Bernard Nathanson, who founded NARAL, has freely admitted that he lied when he said that thousands of women died of illegal abortions. They needed an image of carnage and the specter of coathangers and squalid conditions fit the bill. It is a case of repeating a lie enough times to make it the truth. The CDC and the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology verify that more die today in legal abortions than did before Roe in illegal ones. Just one more example of the complete and absolute dishonesty of the pro abortion position.

Why then don't we remove all laws concerning killing from the books? And by what logic do you arrive at the point that killing another human being is a valid "last resort" for a desperate woman whose life is not being threatened?

Planning to kill another human being is always a horrible agonizing decision, but that shouldn't change the fact that it is illegal. Do we release killers because they made a tough decision or do we punish them because they carried it out?

And stop with the poor poor, tug at the heartstrings stories. They are for the most part lies and if a woman makes a decision that costs her her life, it is her decision. As you said, we can't stop people from making stupid choices.

Compromize? Exlain that to the 40 million (and counting) human beings who have already been killed for no better reason than convenience.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

Excellent counterpoints... I'll have to look into the carnage propaganda angle. I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved in this one, but... if we all learn something... all the better. So I will forge on...

However, there is not malicious intent on the part of these mothers as there is with people that get locked up for shooting someone. And at the moment it's not illegal. To put these women in the same basket as the worst that our society has to offer is IMO, unconscionable. You might be able to make that argument in the case of the doctor... but to demonize young desperate women is taking things too far.

Also, to imply that ALL abortions are out of 'convenience" is a misrepresentation of the facts. I'm not about to suggest that it doesn't happen, but as with most things, blanket generalizations do a disservice to the debate. Not everyone lives in a perfect June Cleaver world. And for some who do, the pressure not to embarrass the family with a scandalous pregnancy can be overwhelming. For those that don't live quite that well, there are abusive fathers, husbands and boyfriends to contend with.

But the issue is larger than that. To my understanding, the neo-cons and Republicans would like to remove or defund most of the social programs that these less fortunate women will need to care for a child born to an otherwise unfit mother. So tell me, what would we do with the 40 million babies, a large portion of whom would be born to drug users and chronic alcoholics? Who is going to pay for their welfare? It's a case of wanting your cake and eating it too. There are many other social factors that feed into this issue and to isolate this issue from them is not realistic. Are there 40 million people ready to adopt these kids? If there aren't what do you do with them all? Orphanages? Who will make sure that the special needs of these children will be met and at what cost? The crack babies that ARE born are a huge drain on our social safety nets. How would we handle even 5 million more, 1 million... I'm not justifying the act, I'm saying there are many interconnected issues that need to be dealt with before or at the same time to ensure that these kids HAVE a social safety net when they do arrive. Not doing so would IMHO, be just as irresponsible. Perhaps we could have the abortion opponents sign a registry stating that they will be responsible for the life they've saved. If they are so passionate about this, perhaps it should be solely up to them to care for these unfortunate children. Are you willing to accept personal responsibility for 40 million children?

My concern here is that once it is made illegal that you all will dust off your hands, pat each other on the back and walk away. Problem solved, right? Given that most of the anti-abortion crowd are also the republican/small government crowd, you will then (perhaps unwittingly) elect Representatives that will systematically strip away the very social safety nets that these women and kids will need to become responsible, productive members of society.

As much as you would like to make this a simple cut and dried issue, it's not, it's systemic. It involves every sector of our society.

Fair enough, but what if the person is not a woman, what if it's a child of 15, 16, 17... They don't yet have the skills set to deal with adult decisions like this. So you condemn them to death and justify it as "they got what they deserved"? What if that child see no other way out than to commit suicide, taking both her and the baby from this earth? Did she deserve it?

If ALL human life is sacred as most who share your views claim... how can you just turn your back? It's her decision? Now you're treading back into a grey area again. Now I put to you that you are stepping near the line of hypocrisy. Speaking of which, did you support the Iraq war? Is it permissible to extinguish the life of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis to bring down a dictator we had a beef with? And don't drag "he killed more of his own people than we did", into it. That blood was on HIS hands, not ours. How many children have died in the invasion? Where is your outcry for them? Is state sponsored killing ok? Should we outlaw alcohol because too many people are killed by drunk drivers who found it more convenient to drive home than to call a friend or a taxi? I know, I'm reaching on that one, but my point is, this isn't a perfect society, and it never will be. But these questions must be answered before we bring 40 million uneanted, at risk children into this society.

All I'm trying to say is, that if you want to tackle abortion, you had best be prepared to fix a HUGE range of other social issues that feed into it. Are you up to that task too? Believe me, I would prefer that no one died needlessly. But we must be realistic in finding a solution. My concern is that you are trying to solve a problem at it's final stage while ignoring all the all the factors that led to it. I just think your efforts would be better spent making sure those problems are dealt with so that the decision to abort doesn't even have to come up.

Now then, after I do some checking on your statement that the scenario I first proposed (and I have personal anecdotal evidence of girls dying from "back alley" abortions) are lies, I will, if need be, remove my foot from my mouth and bow out of this topic. However, if your assertion plays out to be an attempt to discredit that information for the benefit of your own propaganda, then I will stand by my reasoning.

Whatever the case, please don't present this issue as black and white. It's not. And that is why the debate rages on.

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S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Well stated OR, and I agree that it is not just a black and white issue, it is a complex multifaceted issue. Not only is it complex, within my own opinion I have differing views on the subject. Abortion is wrong according to my relegious background and then I think how would I explain that to a 12yrold girl who was impregnated by their father or family member or something. If abortion were illegal, with exception to incest and life threatening situations, I certainly wouldn't want my drama played out on the front page of newspaper while I was appealing for the right to have one. Very sticky subject.

Are there 40 million people ready to adopt these kids? If there aren't what do you do with them all?

Abortion is not birth control. Go out and find someone who survived an abortion who said they wished they didn't live. HINT: there are none.

I'll have to look into the carnage propaganda angle.

I've seen the pictures the look no different than you and me yet their little bodies are ripped apart as they try to squirm away for their lives. That my friend is called reality.

However, there is not malicious intent on the part of these mothers as there is with people that get locked up for shooting someone. And at the moment it's not illegal. To put these women in the same basket as the worst that our society has to offer is IMO, unconscionable. You might be able to make that argument in the case of the doctor... but to demonize young desperate women is taking things too far.

Millions Americans go through tough decision in their lives yet don't kill. I guess to you it be okay for man that's having trouble feeding his family to rob a bank because he was desperate.

__________________
"Oh great and powerful funk!"-OkhamsRazor
"One would be insane to debate with you. You are another great debator."- somtfs

Everyone who supported slavery was free.
Everyone who supports abortion was born.
And that my friend is how oppression works.

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We were referring to the young women maimed, sterilized, and killed in back alley abortions when it was illegal. Have you been taking lessons from Coulter?

Wow, you're good! That was exactly my point!

Answer the question... Are you and the right to life crowd prepared to take personal responsibility for these 40 million lives you will save?

Are you prepared to tackle the social ills that make this an option for so many?

I'm not necessarily for abortion, I'm on a very uncomfortable fence with agent99. I'm saying, just making it illegal isn't going to end the killing or suffering. Are you prepared to tackle those interconnected issues? Or do you think all you have to do is make it illegal?

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Are you and the right to life crowd prepared to take personal responsibility for these 40 million lives you will save?

Actually I have already have adopted twice. A boy from a mother who was going to have an abortion and recently a beautiful girl from South Korea. Ryan and Katie have been the most rewarding part of my 27 yrs of life. Although I admit I can't do it all.

The most important thing is we need to remove abortion as an option. Since 1973, when abortion was federally legalized, child abuse has not decreased, child neglect has not decreased, and homicide against children has not decreased. Abortion has not solved these problems, but it very well may be feeding the ideology that leads to them. I know this is hard for most liberals to accept but we need to teach our kids personal responsibly so that the idea of abortion hardly even comes up or is even seen as a reliable option. That alone could decrease abortions drastically. Will any of the women who do abort illegally ever die? It's possible (there are women who die each year from legal abortions), but the number of deaths will be no where near the 1.3 million people who are currently dying every year from legal abortions in the U.S. There are about 3,000 abortions performed every day 97% are due to "convenience" or "unwantedness". That means about 3% of all abortions are because the health of the mother.

That 40 million is already dead so we won't have to take care of them anyway. If abortion were illegal and we taught our children personal reasonability we wouldn't need to worry taking care of that many children anyway.

Adoption.com also reports that nearly 40% of American adults, or 81.5 million people, have considered adopting a child, and that a 1998 survey found that about 2 million women aged 18 to 44 had sought to adopt a child. Yes there is enough.

Your question might be than why aren't all these babies being adopted. The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), the research arm of Planned Parenthood, estimates that there were 1.31 million abortions performed in the U.S. in the year 2000. The National Coalition of Abortion Providers tells us that the average 1st trimester abortion costs between $350-$650. The Women's Medical Center estimates that a 2nd trimester abortion costs up to $3000 (with the price increasing the further along the pregnancy goes). If we take a $500 average for 1st trimester abortions and use a $3000 average for 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, here's what we get: $590 million are spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million are spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $983 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $250 million that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives in government grants and contracts every year, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion.

When Planned Parenthood argues that they're working hard to reduce the frequency of abortion, the fact remains that their financial livelihood is built on abortion. Planned Parenthood, then, is just like the big tobacco companies. Does anyone really believe that tobacco companies want people to stop smoking? Does anyone really believe that Planned Parenthood wants people to stop having abortions? Follow the money.

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__________________
"Oh great and powerful funk!"-OkhamsRazor
"One would be insane to debate with you. You are another great debator."- somtfs

Everyone who supported slavery was free.
Everyone who supports abortion was born.
And that my friend is how oppression works.

HUCK PAC

http://www.huckpac.com/?FuseAction=Home.Home