I asked you to name another situation in which killing another human being who does not represent an immenent threat to your life is a valid last resort. No answer? Since unborns are living human beings, and you are not arguing the point, then if you are going to make an argument for killing them, your argument must reasonably apply to all living human beings unless you are an ageist making the same sort of argument against the unborn that a racist might make against blacks.

Your argument, like all pro choice arguments is fundamentally dishonest. Your argument represents a logical fallacy in that you beg the question and assume that somehow, unborn human beings are less than post natals otherwise you would only make arguments for killing them that would rightly apply to everyone else.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

if a fetus is unique, it must come from two unique parts. therefore every sperm cell is unique. it has the potential to make life. shouldn't it then be sacred?
if it wasn't wasted we could have more babies. same for ova


god is the only one who can judge. while christians can have opinions and must follow the law of their land, they do not have the power to know a person's heart and melt out judgements. when you judge someone, you open yourself up for judgement. you are an imperfect creature judging others, why would you want an imperfect creature to judge you?
Jesus also talked about loving one another and showing compassion- you can't do so when you are being pious and reeking of self importance.

I have no hubris. I have always admitted that I'm not 100% right on every issue I have an opinion on.
I've explained why a fetus is not alive. I've even stated that I don't know if a fetus has a soul or not. I've stated that I have the nostic view that the mind connects us to God- no mind, no connection. I've said that I wouldn't count any human alive if they couldn't think, if they didn't have awareness. and you have done nothing to be able to change my mind because we have a fundemental disagreement.
thus I have said I'm done debating that issue with you. its a moot point. if you want to debate legal issues fine or even talk about why abortion is needed or how to lower abortion rates in realistic terms... feel free.
but you are too involved with fetuses and your claim of them being alive to get to any of the other areas of abortion. you are too invovled with that ojne aspect to acknowledge the other ones.

__________________
Psych Majors are JUNG and HORNEY

Freedom is SEXY

What is sacred about potential?

Again, you prove that you simply don't know what you are talking about. We are, in fact, commanded to make judgements in some instances and there are those who are to make a living making judgements.


I am not afraid of being judged. We are judged every day of our lives. If you believe otherwise, in addition to being ignorant of what the Bible says, you are terribly naive.

[quote=wolf_22;425838]Jesus also talked about loving one another and showing compassion- you can't do so when you are being pious and reeking of self importance.[/qupte]

You call killing children loving one another?

And I have proven beyond a doubt that you are wrong. Your explanations don't stand up to actual science.

And you have stated all those things in direct opposition to credible science to the contrary and yet, you claim no hubris.

Sorry, no meaningful conversation can be had until you give up the lies that you are telling to yourself. Meaningful conversation isn't possible when one side is being dishonest.

The are living human beings. Do feel free to provide some credible information to the contrary, but your own unsubstantiated, uncorroborated, uneducated opinion doesn't do the trick. Either prove your point or admit that you can't. If you can't prove it, then it is worthless and it is time for you to start making an argument for why it is ok to kill a living human being for reasons that rarely amount to more than convenience.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

[quote=PaleRider;426066]What is sacred about potential?

thats my opinion about a fetus that can't think or feel yet. its still only unique potential

Again, you prove that you simply don't know what you are talking about. We are, in fact, commanded to make judgements in some instances and there are those who are to make a living making judgements.
I know that its wrong to judge people and that is only a job for God. Judging a person based on the land of the law is one thing, judging their hearts, character, and other non-legal attributes is not right for any flawed human to do.

I am not afraid of being judged. We are judged every day of our lives. If you believe otherwise, in addition to being ignorant of what the Bible says, you are terribly naive.
I would never want a mere human to judge me. naturally it happens, doesn't mean I have to like it or be comfortable with it. unlike you I understand that just because I don't like something doesn;t mean I can stop it or its right to get invovled in other's choices (be they right or wrong)

I have already proven my point. multible times.
you have hubris and are very ignorant if you think any woman has an abortion for a paltry reason or approaches the choice with ease. its the hardest choice most females will ever make. and you should understand that.

__________________
Psych Majors are JUNG and HORNEY

Freedom is SEXY

[quote=wolf_22;426585]thats my opinion about a fetus that can't think or feel yet. its still only unique potential[/color]

But those attributes are not what make you a human being or what make you alive. This is evidenced by the fact that those who are more intelligent or more empathetic are not more alive than anyone else or more human than anyone else. Being human doesn't depend on you manifesting your potential to any degree. You are what you are on the day you are concieved and no amount of age, growth, or maturing will ever make you more alive or more human.

[quote=wolf_22;426585]I know that its wrong to judge people and that is only a job for God. Judging a person based on the land of the law is one thing, judging their hearts, character, and other non-legal attributes is not right for any flawed human to do.[/color]

Unborns are being denied their right to live in opposition to the law of this land wolf. Abortion is decidedly unconstitutional.

[quote=wolf_22;426585]I would never want a mere human to judge me. naturally it happens, doesn't mean I have to like it or be comfortable with it. unlike you I understand that just because I don't like something doesn;t mean I can stop it or its right to get invovled in other's choices (be they right or wrong)[/color]

You are the sort who would deny that a living human being is not alive and not human so that you get to decide whether they live or die for any reason that you care to make up. You want to be judge jury and executioner for the most innocent among us wolf, don't be a hypocrite and cry about how you don't want to be judged.

Of course you do and no it isn't. Child, zygote, infant, fetus, etc., are just words we use to describe a human being in a particular stage of thier life. A zygote is as alive and human as it will ever be. We don't become more alive or more human because we are older and more mature. You deny the truth wolf so you make it impossible to have any meaningful discussion as to whether abortion is OK or not.

No you don't. You run away from the legal and medical aspect of the issue. In order to discuss the legal aspect, you must come to terms with what is being killed. You have not done this. You deny the truth and are completely unable to substantiate your opinion in any way. Until you can come to terms with what is being killed, it isn't possible for you to apply any legal argument to it.

As to the medical, you run screaming from that side of the issue. The medical community is in agreement that unborns are living human beings from the time they are concieved. There is no argument within the medical or scientific community. There is much argument over whether it is OK to kill them or not, but no argument as to what they are. So no, wolf, you do not deal with either the legal or the medical aspects of this issue.

If your argument has any fingerprint at all, it is a moral one. You claim that it is ok for a woman to kill her children because she feels like it. That is a moral argument. It exposes a near total lack of morals, but it is a moral argument none the less.

This argument fails every time you try it wolf because hundreds of laws are on the books that tell us what we may or may not do with our bodies. You pick this one issue to whine about and that makes you a hypocrite. And your morals lead you to favor the right of one to live over another for reasons that rarely amount to more than convenience. Some set of morals you have there.

Again, thinking and feeling are not what make us human beings. Children born without brains are human beings to the exact degree as you. They are handicapped and will not live long, but they are exactly has human as you.

I invite you to prove that the ability to feel is what makes you a human being. We both know, of course, that you won't, because you can't. A living human being is simply what you are, not a product of the degree to which you manifest your potential. If that were the case, those who are more intelligent, or more feeling would be more human than those who are less feeling or intelligent. Clearly that is not the case.



No wolf, you have not proven anything. You have given your oppinion and been completely unable to support it with any sort of credible materials at all. That does not constitute proof of any sort.

And I realize that in order to have any crediblity, I actually have to provide credible materials to back my position up disproves your accusation of hubris on my part. I don't expect my argument to be believed just because I say it is so. I seek out and provide credible proof to back up my position.

And I have invited you over and over to name a situation in which the woman's life or long term health is not in danger that doesn't meet the definition of convenience. To date, you have not even named a single situation. You make these whining appeals and pleas, but are unable to offer up a situation that doesn't amount to convenience. And the fact that it is a tough decision does not mean that it is not being made for reasons of convenience. Most of the choices we make, and some of the most difficult are matters of convenience wolf.

The fact is that you support allowing women to kill their unborn children without legal consequence for any or no reason at all. I am not surprised that you would have a problem facing the truth of your position. Most pro choicers spend their entire energy on the subject in an attempt to deny their position because to admit it destroys your argument but until you come to face the truth of your position, you simply can not offer up a rational, honest argument in defense of it.

So do as you always do and run away. If you are so dishonest that you lie to yourself rather than face the ugly face of your beliefs, what sort of actual conversation could we have anyway? A conversation in which one side is all lies is worse than no conversation at all.

You may not like what I say wolf, but at least it is true and I can back it up with as much credible material as you want to see. Can you say the same for your argument?

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi