You had a good act going on there. You might have convinced someone that you knew something but you just couldn't wait for my answer could you? You had to jump up and prove that you really don't have a grasp of developmental biology and that your lack of knowledge led you to believe that you had bested me. That isn't going to happen.

I don't need to lie, I don't need to misrepresent, I don't need to distort, and I don't need to mislead in order to win this argument.

What we witnessed was you proving that you don't know enough about the science to intelligently discuss the subject. Nothing more. Nothing less. And now you have profoundly dissappointed all those pro choicers who might have viewed you as someone who could do what none of them have been able to do.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Of course, no one was talking to you when you jumped into the conversation between BD and naturemomma either. Don't be a hypocrite.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Anything is presented to try and make a point...even if it is derived with no cognation to science or logic involved. Their only point is based upon "emotional" ranting of imagined rights that are paramount to even human life. And even our "declaration of independence" clearly states that "life" is "unalienable". It does not specify that it needs to be out of a state of gestation, but considers the fact of life granted not by any legal system, as the pseudo liberals want to define life...but all life is granted by the "transcendent" authority that is paramount to all man made law, as it derives from the CREATOR. To say any thing other is to spit upon our heritage that has made this nation the greatest to have ever been conceived by man, as its original founders drafted their intentions from the source of Creation, and when we deviate from that source, its the people that suffer. BD

As surprising as this may be to some people, there is no debate within the medical community as to when life begins. Life begins at conception. Consider the testimony below from an assortment of leading embryology textbooks.



The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."



Essentials of Human Embryology
William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."



Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."


Adding to the consensus of contemporary textbooks, is the testimony of older medical texts as well:


Human Embryology, 3rd ed.
Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."


Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17.

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."


Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.
E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

In addition to the consistent testimony found in medical textbooks, there is some equally conclusive evidence that exists on the public record. In 1981, a United States Senate judiciary subcommittee received the following testimony from a collection of medical experts (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981):

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth Harvard University Medical School

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."


Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni
Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."


Dr. Jerome LeJeune
Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."


Professor Hymie Gordon
Mayo Clinic

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."


Dr. Watson A. Bowes
University of Colorado Medical School

"The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter – the beginning is conception."

The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.

__________________
"Oh great and powerful funk!"-OkhamsRazor
"One would be insane to debate with you. You are another great debator."- somtfs

Everyone who supported slavery was free.
Everyone who supports abortion was born.
And that my friend is how oppression works.

HUCK PAC

http://www.huckpac.com/?FuseAction=Home.Home

I don't mind at all IusIuris ... Pale has been ruining this blog for quite a while with his BS, many people don't even bother with the abortion threads anymore... He's not capable of discussing all the issues in regards to abortion. While science is relevant, it's not all there is to this issue.

__________________
Who would Jesus Bomb?

Of coarse it hurts. Your being screwed by an elephant.

Barak Obama - Half honkey - all donkey

"It doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes"- Joseph Stalin

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...58/asshole.jpg - Palerider aka, Palebitch, Palewhiner and Paleface.

Another example of a dishonest argument. The pro abortion crowd says "it's just a fetus, not a baby". It is not only OK but GOOD sometimes to kill a fetus because it helps the mother psychologically in cases of rape or incest. But they want us to see their 'compassionate' side when they say "Abortion is simply the last resort". Either it is 'just a fetus' in which case why make abortion a last resort? It should be as simple as having a wart removed. Nobody cries for their old wart that was cut/burned/freezed off because it was not a human being. So, again, to be consistent (hopefully you want to be consistent) IusIuris you can't kill your babies and then claim to be compassionate because it was a last resort. Either you removed an inhuman lump, or you killed a baby. Which is it?

"The real question is what is it? If it is not an innocent human life, no justification is necessary, if it is an innocent human life, no justification is adequate." --Greg Koukl

1- ever hear of 'judge not lest ye be judged'
for someone who loves the bible you sure seem to forget that statement.

2-its foolish and shows great huberus to deal in absolutes and to claim to know about a person's life more than they do. and to claim you know the best options for them.

look in the mirror and ask if you want someone to rule your life.
if you want someone to judge you.
if you want someone to talk about a god who instucts their followers not to judge and remember that vengence comes only from god, but perceeds to ignore those rules.

always remember "pro-life" people will love and aid you while you are pregnant, but don't expect anything after labor is over.

__________________
Psych Majors are JUNG and HORNEY

Freedom is SEXY

It's I killed a baby. I was not trying to be compassionate in the slightest. When I said abortion was the last result, that means that after the pills failed, after the spermicide failed, after the condom broke. Sorry if you got a bit confused.

Of course I can discuss all the issues. First, however, we must get through the lies being told by the pro choice side of the argument. No rational discussion can be had if one side is lying. People have given up on the abortion threads because they can't face the facts and won't discuss the issue based on the facts.

So as soon as you admit that you have been wrong and that unborns at any stage of development are indeed living human beings, we can move on to discussing whether or not it is OK to kill them but so long as your position is based in lies, distortion, and misrepresentation, we can't move on.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Context wolf. In typical liberal fashion, you love bringing up the bible, and in typical liberal fashion, you don't understand it in the least. "Do not judge, lest you be judged" (Matthew 7:1).

Jesus' comment is almost universally misunderstood (or mischaracterized) because of an inherent conflict in the condemnation of judging that goes unnoticed to almost everyone but Him.

The problem is that judgment always requires evaluation. Taken out of context, the statement poses a problem. The statement "You shouldn't judge" is self-refuting, being itself an example of judgment.

Jesus qualified His comment though.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?...You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:3, 5)

Jesus didn't say that we have no right to judge, he only condemned hypocritical judgment. Not all judgments fall into that category. In fact, even in this passage Jesus actually enjoins a different kind of judgment once the hypocrisy has been dealt with ("first take the log out of your own eye, then...").

There are a couple of other kinds of judging descibed in the bible that are not condemned, but rather are, in fact, commanded. Some judgments are judicial, proper when done by proper authorities. Judges judge. They pass sentence. That's their job. (Matthew 18:15-20, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13, Galatians 6:1).

If you study the bible in context, you will see that Jesus did not come initially for this kind of judgment. He offered mercy, not sentencing (John 3:17, 12:47) - but He will certainly return with this kind. Appointed by the father as final judge (John 5:22, 27; Acts 10:42, 17:31), He will spare no one.

All sorts of judgments are advised. Appraisals of right or wrong, wise or foolish, accurate or inaccurate, rational or irrational. Those sorts of judgments are not forbidden; and in fact, are commanded. Jesus' instructions "Do not give what is holy to dogs" (Matthew 7:6) require this kind of judgment.

Some judgements are moral. Paul charges us with this kind of judgment: "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them" (Ephesians 5:11). This is to be done not "according to appearance," but by "righteous" standards (John 7:24)

A judicial action, a factual assessment, a hypocritical arrogance - each is a type of judgement. Only the hypocritical arrogance, that is, pointing out the speck in your brother's eye when there is a log in your own) is disqualified by Jesus. The first two are actually virtues in their proper settings, and therefore commanded by Scripture.

Intellectual dishonesty doesn't serve your purpose wolf. If you are going to argue using the bible, then you could at least try to get it right and save me all this typing.


Yes it is wolf and you are guilty of it to an extreme that few on this board are. In spite of the overwhelming evidence that unborns are living human beings at any stage of development, you, in your proclivity for absolutes, still claim that they are not only not alive, but are not human beings and then you state that unless someone accepts what you say as true, that you won't even discuss the subject with them. Talk about hubris. We can't even get into the discussion of whether or not it is OK to kill them until we get past your hubris.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma