Originally Posted by wolf_22

no logically that means being more humane and not less humane. how can we improve society without compassion? we can't.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

killing people doesn't make life better. it makes it worse. killing people doesn't improve communities, it tears them apart.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

logically if my stance is to improve society I couldn't rationally imploy those tactics.

Originally Posted by PaleRider

Check recidivism rates prior to injecting "humanity" and "rehabilitation" into the penal system. There was a time when if you got out of jail, you damned sure didn't want to ever go back in. Recidivism rates are far higher today than they were prior to the liberalization of the penal system. Again, you are operating from a position of "feeling" rather than one of fact.

Check the fact that those methods stopped offenders from reoffending, but did nothing to prevent crime nor to get a the root of why those people committed the crime to begin with. and don't forget that quite a bit of crime back them went unsolved. even in the early 1990s we were still a little half/half on how to use DNA in terms of finding criminals. we have more crime and more criminals being caught, its reasonable to say that its good to change our methods and that its good to be more humane than we were in the past.


And yet, you claim that abortion is just fine as if unborns were not living human beings as much as you are. Only one who is truely inhuman would deny the humanity of another so that she could legally kill for reasons that rarely amount to more than convenience.
I'm not debating this with you anymore. I'm talking about people who are born. I'm talking about lowering crime rates. not about the moment of life, quality of life for fetuses, or legality of abortion.


And yet, you do. You believe you avoid those tactics by claiming that the ones you are killing are not living human beings. As I have asked before, if you don't believe that they are living human beings, then provide some credible evidence to support your belief.read above

Originally Posted by wolf_22

thats completely ridiculous and false. aborting all black fetuses wouldn't stop white crime.

I support making society and therefore life better so less people comitt crime and so people who comitt crime can be rehabiliated.

having an abortion is responcible if its the best option. the key is making people's lives different so they have more options and better ones than that.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

either you accept my stance when you talk to me- or don't talk to me. its real simple.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

Check the fact that those methods stopped offenders from reoffending, but did nothing to prevent crime nor to get a the root of why those people committed the crime to begin with. and don't forget that quite a bit of crime back them went unsolved. even in the early 1990s we were still a little half/half on how to use DNA in terms of finding criminals. we have more crime and more criminals being caught, its reasonable to say that its good to change our methods and that its good to be more humane than we were in the past.

Originally Posted by Themaniacster

Yah, let's stop producing children, that way there will be no more people and no more crime! WOOHOO!

Originally Posted by PaleRider

Either I accept your fantasy that unborns are not living human beings or don't talk to you? Instead of improving at your debate skills wolf, you get worse and worse. Offer up a valid reason that I should accept your stance. You certainly have not been able to corroborate it with anything even resembling credible evidence while my stance is fully substantiated. Tell me again why I should accept your stance?




What are you talking about wolf? The vast bulk of crimes committed today are by repeat offenders. Clearly handling criminals gently only encourages them to repeat their crimes. There was less crime (even counting the ones that went unsolved) prior to the injection of modern liberalism into our society than there is today. The root cause of most of the societal problems we see today is modern liberalism itself. Institutions like abortion cheapen life and you simply can't believe that you can successfully teach a society on one hand to resperct the property and beliefs of others but on the other hand feel free to kill the most innocent among us for any reason you like if you feel it is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

being harsh still does nothing to get a the root of crime. to understand why it happens and to prevent it, as well as rehabilitate people.

Originally Posted by PaleRider

You admit that harsh prisons worked to prevent repeat offenses and yet, you support attempted rehabilitation which obviously doesn't work. Explain that line of thinking wolf.

Modern liberalism has created an entitlement mentality wolf. People who believe that they are entitled to something that they wprled for and aren't going to get because they won't work for it go about taking without regard because they believe they are owed. The entitlement mentality is the root cause of a great deal of the crime we see today wolf and modern liberalism is responsible for the entitlement mentality.

To address the entlement mentality, you must remove the feeling of entitlement and you do that by stressing personal responsibility for one's circumstances. You aren't about personal responsibility wolf, you are about avoiding personal responsibility and encouraging the entitlement mentality which in turn is responsible for most of the problems we face in this country today. You, and people like you aren't part of the solution wolf, you are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by PaleRider

What are you talking about wolf? The vast bulk of crimes committed today are by repeat offenders. Clearly handling criminals gently only encourages them to repeat their crimes. There was less crime (even counting the ones that went unsolved) prior to the injection of modern liberalism into our society than there is today. The root cause of most of the societal problems we see today is modern liberalism itself. Institutions like abortion cheapen life and you simply can't believe that you can successfully teach a society on one hand to resperct the property and beliefs of others but on the other hand feel free to kill the most innocent among us for any reason you like if you feel it is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I disagree. I think the more compassionate we are the less crime we will have. when you have a cops V public mentality, and the feeling that no one cares you are more likely to committ crime and more likely to ignore/enable crime.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I have no said anything against personal responcibilty. when it comes to crime I don't ignore the fact that people's circumstances influence their lives. you can't just look at things from one angel and expect to create good programs based on your findings, pale.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

we also had less crime because we had more unity during certain times in our nation history. not to mention in other parts of the world. countries with a more humane, kind, and caring outlook have far less crime than we do.

Originally Posted by wolf_22

we have a mean, cruel mentality and wonder why our society is so violent.

Originally Posted by funktacular

Its easy to see how abortion on demand is changing the way society looks at children. If children are expendable before birth, it is only logical that they begin to be seen as expendable after birth. Some bio-ethicists even suggest that parents be given a few weeks after their baby is born to decide if they want to keep or "abort" their newborn child. When mothers are given the legal right to dispose of their babies before birth, that very well could influence the way they see their children after birth. Since unborn children in America today have no rights to life beyond the affections of their mother, what happens to these children after birth, when the affections of their mother suddenly turns on them? Of the 5,000 born children who are killed annually in this nation, ninety-five percent are killed at the hands of one or both of their own parents.

Fundamentally, abortion teaches us that violence is an acceptable way to deal with the burden of children. The corresponding increase in American child abuse indicates that this is a lesson we are learning all too well.

Originally Posted by PaleRider

What you "think" is irrelavent if the facts prove you wrong. The more compassionate we are towards antisocial behavior, the more socially acceptable it seems. Your logic is flawed in the typical bleeding heart manner and the fact that your beliefs are proven wrong repeatedly in the real world is completely irrelavent to you.
I said nothing about compassion for anti-social behavior. I talked about compassion for the person, not the actions, behaviors, or crime. the abilty to see that almost every person is redeemable.
and the logical approach that putting people in unsafe violent conditions will only make them more violent, that humiliating people won't make them be kinder human beings, seperating them from relatives will enhance their anti-social behaviors, and that not teaching them new skills will increase their likelyhood to not be able and lead a productive life after prison.


We have now had a half century and 7 trillion dollars worth of "programs". Name 5 that have delivered what they promised.
we used to see alot of positve things by allowing inmates to join the service. it gave them structure and unity. we have witnessed youth doing better when they are given counseling and not just jail or limited probation. we see parents getting their kids back and doing better when we work to reunited families. and drug rehabilitation over prison has worked great in some of the counties/states that use it. (this depends on the drug though)

We had more unity because there was a sense of community. There were no hyphenated people, there were just americans and we were all in this together. Today, the government is taking the place of community and political correctness only serves to divide people into camps. People are more isolated than ever before as a result of government programs.
I wish we had more of a sense of community. I wish we disn't view suffering of one area, one group, or one person as something that doesn't effect all of us someway. people don't feel connected with everyone else and therefore don't feel the need to be compassionate or to help. especially if it costs money to do so.
I disagree. hyphenation doesn't have any negative aspects. heck we used to have close knit communities that didn't allow mixing. I'd rather ahve people mix and distingish themselves, than not be so open with who they are and avoid others.


We have government programs replacing actual human interaction and interdependence. If you wonder why crime is on the rise, look to modern liberalism.