I would say it all begins when we no longer value human life above all but righteousness. Sure mankind is infamous for wanting what we want at the expense of others. Tell me though; would you not imprison a mother for whoring out her 13 year old daughter? Who you not want to death penalty for a mother who drowns her newborn in a bathtub? The atrocities are none like the horror we commit today. Not to build a case for the above mentioned, but perhaps the mother of the thirteen year old had a similar event happen in her youth, as we all know statistics show a person’s youth structures their adulthood. And the mother who drowned her newborn simply lost it due to having a sixteen hour work day, and being a single mother.

Both should be tried in the court of law and be convicted for their crimes. But we as a society see nothing wrong with robbing life from the womb of a woman for her own benefit. As history has shown, as society devalues it declines. First with morals and ethics, then soon comes the economy, and finally total upheaval. We, just as our predecessors of Rome believe we are above this, but I guarantee you my friend, the means will justify our end.

People will forever argue for their own needs; I am too poor, I am too hungry, I am too ugly. What abortion comes down to is…

*I don’t have the money
*I don’t want to lose all of my free time
*I can’t have a social life with a kid

Tell me, what if your parents had the choice at this very moment; to recollect every dime they ever spent on you, for our purposes, lets say it is $1,000,000. Now, let’s say if they take you to a doctor and have you euthanized, they get this money. And the law states that they may do so, who you feel they had a right to do it?

If something is growing, it is alive in a sense. We lose all humanity in this debate, because those who are pro-choice are not pro-love, or pro-caring. They are self-indulgent people, who with to have what they want, regardless of the cost. In allowing our teens, and young adults have abortions, we are telling them that human life is no more valuable than that of your dog from childhood that was put down because it was an inconvenience.

If you care about the future of this nation, and the children born in it, then stop abortion. Hell it may even help many of our other societal problems.

-STD’s
-Teen Pregnancy
-Murder Rates
-Violent crimes
-And more

Tell me, what do we lose if we end the right of abortion?
-Promiscuous sex: Hell, I like it, I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I could look into a childs eyes and tell them they had to die because I wanted to screw that hot chick from the bar.

What do we gain? Look up!

wow, not much for science are you? or statistics? it helps your point to make shit up?


first of all, there is NO correlation between a decline in morals and the fall of a society. Thats one of the most ridiculous things you posted. Also, that we should value human life above everything except righteousness? whats that mean?


How the hell does STOPPING abortion decrease murder rates, or teen pregnancy, or STDs? That makes NO FUCKING SENSE! I'd say you'd have to realize that, but let me guess, you worship Jesus? So things making sense isn't really a prerequisite to you thinking theyre true huh?

How can getting rid of abortions reduce teen pregnancy? explain yourself!

jesus, im in a bad mood, so i have to let you know, you're a stupid fucking moron of the lowest kind, a brainless social leach. let me guess, everyone does the thinking for you? you're always the follower in your group, huh? dont answer, you'd lie about it anyways. fucking moron

If you had any intelligence of your own, you might have realised my lack of clearity was to begin a discussion. Your direct insults express your involvement in this issue.

Have you ever been involved in aborting a baby?

Anyways, to address your points...

"How the hell does STOPPING abortion decrease murder rates, or teen pregnancy, or STDs? "

Ha, and you claim I don't think for myself, let me break it down for you since you either ignore correlation or just want to be attacked...

The connection between murder rates is a rather far one, I can admit it. It wouldn't be world changing if at all. However, I know you had the information to make the connection due to your statement..."first of all, there is NO correlation between a decline in morals and the fall of a society." Perhaps along with being in a bad mood today, you also arn't thinking O.o.

Anyways, the connecton between STDs and teen pregnancy could not be any clearer...I really believe that you simply jumped into this without thinking, or perhaps your assault is just your subconcious telling you what you need to hear.

Shit, got side tracked.

*By taking away the comfort and relaxation abortions offers promiscuous young women, you push forth the reality of what happens when you fuck. YOU GET PREGNANT!

Incase you don't get that, and judging from your previous comments, lemme break it down for you. Girls don't wanna get pregnant, so they don't fuck.

Yes I do believe in jesus, but clearly I'm not a Jesus freak. I'm 21, and male, what do you expect. I strongly admire those who are Jesus freaks, for they contain more constitution and will than ten times that of both you and I. By the way, "I'd say you'd have to realize that, but let me guess, you worship Jesus? So things making sense isn't really a prerequisite to you thinking theyre true huh?" **Circumstantial Ad hominem** and thus a fallacy, you only make yourself look really stupid for saying that.

"How can getting rid of abortions reduce teen pregnancy? explain yourself!"

Uh, I think you said that already, and thus it is answered above...Yeah, not helping yourself much bud, no need to repeat yourself O.o.


"jesus, im in a bad mood, so i have to let you know, you're a stupid fucking moron of the lowest kind, a brainless social leach. let me guess, everyone does the thinking for you? you're always the follower in your group, huh? dont answer, you'd lie about it anyways. fucking moron "

Clearly you lack the integrity to carry on a conversation without throwing libel incoherent assaults at every person you debate, hoping that they are weak enough to bow to your own feelings of inadequacy...

I don't insult everyone, some people here should be able to attest to that fact. I only tend to insult people I think make stupid points. Lets move on.
While the fear of pregnancy without the recourse for abortion seemingly may in your way of thinking somehow cause people to realize they shouldn't have sex. Of course, this isn't the way MOST people think. Most people aren't thinking about abortions when they're having sex. And again, justify your points, please, point out some sort of facts beyond your assertion. Start by naming one society which fell BECAUSE its citizens stopped acting morally.
Then explain how a lack of abortions stops STDs, of course, without ASSUMING first that a lack of abortions reduces the amount of sexual activity (since you have yet to prove this one by a long shot).

And lastly, despite it being a fallacy, my point still stands. It is simply because you worship Jesus and your pastors and fellow Jesus worshipers that you think the way you do. they have helped instruct you and inform and warp your perspective on the issue. This explains perfectly why you think a bunch of unsubstantiated attacks on abortion actually make sense. This is simple behavioralism, you're mimicking the ideas of those around you to fit into the group. I have no such group, in fact, I rarely find anyone who sees the world the same way as me. So my opinions have to be substantiated, I don't have a bunch of yes men to confuse me.

Ok well, beyond knowing multiple people who have used the option of abortion as birth control, here are some statistics. By the way, I think you are making this way too easy...


Abortion averages:
Worldwide, the lifetime average is about 1 abortion per woman.
© Copyright 1999-2000, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (Guttmacher Institute: Home Page)

In the united States:
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

© Copyright 1998, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (Guttmacher Institute: Home Page)
© Copyright 1997, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (Guttmacher Institute: Home Page)
© Copyright 1995, Family Planning Perspectives
© Copyright 1988, Family Planning Perspectives





Though I mentioned it previously (And this is begining to become a little too freequent and I hope that you can better comprehend my statements) Rome is well known for falling due to moral decline, ask any history teacher or buff and they will tell you it was a major determining factor. And if you don't believe me, here is a road map.

Reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire

"And lastly, despite it being a fallacy, my point still stands."
Um, do you even know what a fallacy is? Well, here is a denotation, just incase.

"A fallacy is a component of an argument which, being demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, renders the argument invalid in whole."


As for a connection between teen pregnancy and abortion, well my friend I can't believe this is a shocker to you, but here it is.

METHODS: The United States population density was determined for each state and each district of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) from the 2000 US Census. The United States teenage pregnancy statistics for females aged 15 to 19 years in 1999 and 2000 were obtained from the Alan Guttmacher Institute. The main measures were the correlation between population density and teen pregnancy rate or teen abortion rate by state and ACOG district.

RESULTS: In 2000 there was no significant correlation between population density and the percentage of teenage females who conceived when analyzed by ACOG district (correlation coefficient r = 0.063, P = .87). In contrast, there was a significant correlation between population density and the percentage of pregnant teens who electively terminated their pregnancy when analyzed by ACOG district (r = 0.85, P = .003). In regions of greatest population density the percentage of pregnant teens who electively terminated was about 50%. In regions of least population density the percentage of pregnant teens who electively terminated was about 25%. Similar results were observed when teen pregnancy and abortion data from 1999 were analyzed.
Refrence: Population Density and Teen Pregnancy -- Barbieri 104 (4): 741 -- Obstetrics & Gynecology

Refute those if you can, I have investigated them, and thus have determined that they are irrefutable.

And lastly, I believe I mentioned this above, but if you need that backstory to understand where I am coming from I will give it to you. I don't want you thinking that my arguement is based on my religious beliefs, because it is very far from it.

I do have christian beliefs, however, my selfish tendencies all but prohibit me from being able to call myself a christian. So as not to hurt a just cause, I cannot call myself one. I believe in Jesus, and the christian God without a doubt, because I have studied the theology with due diligence. I have also taking several college courses aside if my mainstream interest computer science to further my knowledge in the matter.

Science has holes, and for a reason. It takes more faith to believe in atheism than it does in any christian founded religion. I believe you need to research it further, because something as serious as eternity deserves a second glance rather than just constantly bashing it. Ever wonder why that christian dude has a better life than you? And why you are always seeping back into depression, and the only way you are able to build yourself up is to tear others down? I also took alot of psych, so I can help you there as well.

I am guessing you weigh around 150 lb's and have little muscle, and you rarely shit talk people, because you are so limited in your own view of yourself. Trust me, you can't fill an infinite hole with shit of this world. You can merely stop it up for a short time.

Also, I don't hang out with a bunch of church goers, infact, none of my friends goto church. I smoke pot, love Vodka, and enjoy sex.

So, please, don't come at me with unsubstantiated claims about where I am coming from, because as I said before, you will always end up in the same situation. No ground to stand on, and only making yourself look rediculous. I think for myself and always will. I debate against my sisters devout christian husband all the time. We are always on the opposite side. On the flip side, all I see you making are the repeatative defenses for this, where as I have made a orginal arguement. (For the most part, this has been debated into the ground, so it is a lil hard, but I feel I have presented something unlike most.)


Btw, tell me you are at least an adult?

99 percent of people against birth congtrol are for the death penelty and war. You dont have the right to control people. You inhuman mothfucers have no regard for human life its absolute LIES to cry for unborns when you gleefly supoort killing 10,000s.

Uh, lets just assume you pulled that stat out of your ass, cuz I will.

Anyways, I am for the death penalty, against war, especially the Iraq war. Been against it since the begining.

But about the death penalty, though off-topic, It depends on the situation. However unjust it may be, I think that we should be even more strick (Though in reality it isn't possible) in America, if there is one thing that have right in the middle east, it is the way they handle crime.

Guess what happens if you steal in most Middle-Eastern countries...They cut off your right hand, because over there you use your left hand to wip shit from your ass, so noone will want to shake your hand.

Anyways, the point is, the more strict punishment is, the less the laws occur, that simple. In my perspective it would be great to have the American justice system the way it is, but just add on the death penalty to other things, and harsh punishments as well.

Say for rapists, death penalty.
Child molesters, castrated. Life in jail. Because that is what they have done to the child imprissoned them in torment for the rest of their lives.

So before you think me a bleeding heart liberal, or a mindless republican, know this, I am neither.

I consider myself a patriot. I am however registered as a democrat. The reason being, all though democrats have the most rediculous, out there morals, they have a good view on economics, and helping their fellow man.

I also like the conservatives, because that have a good foundation of morals.

I dont belive a word of it.

Well, that is what morons do to make themselves believe in what they want. They end a conversation that way as well. Personally it doesn't really matter to me, because you are debating, just shit talking.

you know what, you win, im totally uninterested in debating this particular point about abortion


however, any historian who takes the approach to rome you're talking about is shitty historian. to attribute morality to the situation... its ridiculous. Thats like saying a riot is caused by violence. The outcome of the circumstances can be interpreted as immoral in a judeo-christian sense, but not as a causal factor! It isn't violence which CAUSES the riot, the riot is violence. Likewise, the fall of a society might be chaotic, but it is not the cause of the failure of, say, the militia or the body politics. Those are the causes of the fall of rome, the results were composed of "immoral" human behavior. Its just, to say a historian would agree he would have to be the type of historian that specifically takes a judeo-christian approach, all other historians are structuralists! Its not even in their vocabulary to describe it with such general and unrefined ideas. Further, I submit that it is a Christian metaphor used throughout the Middle Ages and ever since to describe the fall of Rome in such a way. This, of course, empowered the Church, by aligning it with Sodom and Gomorrah. As if it were God's will that their immorality be their downfall.

the story of Saint Chrysanthus is a catholic story designed to do exactly as i said, denigrate the fall of rome into mere issues of morality.