At what point do humans cease to be humane?

FreedomForWho · #41 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I say it is once the fetus can think, feel, and has conscious awareness. we'll estimate this at week 14.
I would make allowances for health reason because its not right that one person should be forced to die for another (or even be endangered for another) and I can't judge someone not wanting to bring a sick child into this world. its cruel.

incest falls under the cruel headline. that child could suffer both physical issues, as well as psychological problems dragging along that stigma for life. (obviously the birth defects are the worst because they can't always be treated)

and no raped woman should ever have her rape extended for 9 months. thats reprehensible.

abortion should always be safe and legal and rare. currently its not very rare.
its never an easy choice, but sometimes its the best option.

Picture of the 13th week, looks like a baby to me...
http://www.phc-sgv.org/images/6.jpg

Also by day 40, brain waves can be detected and recorded.

Incest and rape are attrocities, but two wrongs do not make a right.

Also, it is not for us to determine whether or not the "Child in progress" would wish to be born or die due to deformities. Especially in a atheist mind set, to end a life prematurely should be far more cruel than allowing someone their natural birth.

naturemomma · #42 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburbanite

Wolf
in the Maasai culture of Kenya, children are allowed and encouraged to have any form of sex amongst one another. However, at the time of puberty, once on is capable of bearing children, they're required to get married.

i disagree that children aren't "mature" enough for sexual activity, it is our society which is not mature enough. How many children masturbate? all of 'em. Its more natural than you've demonized it to be.

LMAO!LMAO!

First of all - it's MASAI, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I was in the peace corps for 4 years, I lived with some of the people, ya got no clue buddy, so just quit while you are behind...

They have puberty ceremonies, until that time, sex is forbidden.

Tell me, have you ever participated in any of the rituals these people practice? Nope.

You just make shit up!! Did you think you could come on this board and throw your bullshit out here and everyone would buy it? Because really, who knows anything about the people you have chosen to insult, with your bullshit rheteric? Well, I do, you stupid cocksuker.

FreedomForWho · #43 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 06:02 AM

Hey, someone else finally sticks it to him for supporting underage sex, nice going. More than likely, sub is a sex offender. But, can we try to keep the debate on track : /

wolf_22 · #44 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Picture of the 13th week, looks like a baby to me...
http://www.phc-sgv.org/images/6.jpg

Also by day 40, brain waves can be detected and recorded.

Incest and rape are attrocities, but two wrongs do not make a right.

Also, it is not for us to determine whether or not the "Child in progress" would wish to be born or die due to deformities. Especially in a atheist mind set, to end a life prematurely should be far more cruel than allowing someone their natural birth.

I've seen miscarriages at 8 weeks- doesn't look like a baby. doesn't have a working brain either.
and msot abortion take place before week 12.

brain waves are not thoughts. thoughts and conscious awareness comes from the frontal lobes. feeling comes from the parietel lobes, but you still need frontal lobes to be aware of those feelings.

forcing a rape victim to be raped for 9 months is wrong. and there is no justification for that.
beinging sick children into this world knowingly isn't right either. I suppose if you really think its okay to have a kid suffer like that, go ahead. but its wrong to stop parents from wanting to ensure they don't birth sick offspring who will suffer.

its not easy to determine if abortion is the best- many people who grew up poor or abused/neglected, can say they wouldn't wish that on anyone.
many people who are sick wish they didn't have to deal with that.
many parents who have buried unhealthy children regret it.

who is to know what is best for a child or potential better than the woman carrying it? better than its parents?

there are also legal issues. do we want the gov makes our medical choices?
coudln't this lead to not only the gov forbiding abortion but even one day deciding who was fit to give birth either through forced abortion or sterilazation?

abortion also aids society in a few ways. it one keep the gov away from medical and personal choices. it gives women moe autonomy. it decreases unsafe abortions. aids poor women who otherwise couldn't afford safe, illegal abortions (often times doctors would perform abortions but lie and mark down something different on the medical charts when it was illegal). and it lowers crime rates.

from a female perspective- I should have complete control over my body
from a perspective of someone who wants to be a parent one day- I want my child to be wanted, able to be cared for to the best of my abilty, and healthy.

from a religious perspective- heaven is bettter than this life.

and from my personal view- I don't assume I know how anyone's life really is or why they make their choices. nor would I ever say their choices are simple or made on a whim. which is why I find it best to leave these option to each person and no one else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturemomma

LMAO!LMAO!

First of all - it's MASAI, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I was in the peace corps for 4 years, I lived with some of the people, ya got no clue buddy, so just quit while you are behind...

They have puberty ceremonies, until that time, sex is forbidden.

Tell me, have you ever participated in any of the rituals these people practice? Nope.

You just make shit up!! Did you think you could come on this board and throw your bullshit out here and everyone would buy it? Because really, who knows anything about the people you have chosen to insult, with your bullshit rheteric? Well, I do, you stupid cocksuker.

I love it when you're mad nature. cut right through the BS

naturemomma · #45 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I love it when you're mad nature. cut right through the BS

~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~

FreedomForWho · #46 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I've seen miscarriages at 8 weeks- doesn't look like a baby. doesn't have a working brain either.
and msot abortion take place before week 12.

brain waves are not thoughts. thoughts and conscious awareness comes from the frontal lobes. feeling comes from the parietel lobes, but you still need frontal lobes to be aware of those feelings.

forcing a rape victim to be raped for 9 months is wrong. and there is no justification for that.
beinging sick children into this world knowingly isn't right either. I suppose if you really think its okay to have a kid suffer like that, go ahead. but its wrong to stop parents from wanting to ensure they don't birth sick offspring who will suffer.

its not easy to determine if abortion is the best- many people who grew up poor or abused/neglected, can say they wouldn't wish that on anyone.
many people who are sick wish they didn't have to deal with that.
many parents who have buried unhealthy children regret it.

who is to know what is best for a child or potential better than the woman carrying it? better than its parents?

there are also legal issues. do we want the gov makes our medical choices?
coudln't this lead to not only the gov forbiding abortion but even one day deciding who was fit to give birth either through forced abortion or sterilazation?

abortion also aids society in a few ways. it one keep the gov away from medical and personal choices. it gives women moe autonomy. it decreases unsafe abortions. aids poor women who otherwise couldn't afford safe, illegal abortions (often times doctors would perform abortions but lie and mark down something different on the medical charts when it was illegal). and it lowers crime rates.

from a female perspective- I should have complete control over my body
from a perspective of someone who wants to be a parent one day- I want my child to be wanted, able to be cared for to the best of my abilty, and healthy.

from a religious perspective- heaven is bettter than this life.

and from my personal view- I don't assume I know how anyone's life really is or why they make their choices. nor would I ever say their choices are simple or made on a whim. which is why I find it best to leave these option to each person and no one else.

I love it when you're mad nature. cut right through the BS

Illegal abortions do not decrease...

Speaking before the 93rd Congress of the US, Senator James Buckley stated: "Data from foreign countries having far longer experience with legalised abortion than we have had in the US, suggest that legalisation has no effect on the criminal abortion rate. In at least three countries, the criminal abortion rate has actually risen since legalisation. Legalised abortion moves the back alley abortionists into the front office where their trade can be practised without fear of criminal prosecution."

Reference:
The Least of These: What Everyone Should Know About Abortion, Curt Young, 1984, Moody Press, Chicago, IL, p215

Not to judge you on your opinion, but if you do believe in "God" and heaven, it is less likely for you to make it there given your views on this matter. ((Not an attack, just information))

Genesis 9:6 states that we are made in God's image and therefore our lives are precious and whoever takes the life of another human being, forfeits the right to his own life.

We are made by God; "For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb....Your eyes say my unformed body." Psalm 139:13-16 (cf: Is 44:24; Acts 17:24-25; Psalm 100:3; Job 10:8-12)

Because all life was created by God and belongs to Him, no one has the right to murder another human being. "You shall not murder." Exodus 20:13. The Lord hates hands that shed innocent blood according to Proverbs 6:16-17. The Bible also teaches that we need to defend the weak and the helpless. "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves...defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:8-9 (cf Ps 82:3-4).

Abortion also has a negative effect on the health of the individual.

"Every study of induced abortions performed before the first live birth is consistent with an initial increase in risk of at least 50 percent," reports Dr Joel Brind, professor of endocrinology at Baruch College, City University of New York, who is also a breast cancer researcher on staff at Beth Israel Hospital and Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. He has also submitted his research on this subject to the Journal of the American Medical Association for peer review (Nov 1993).

During a woman's first pregnancy a surge of the hormone, oestrogen, causes the breast cells to divide, become mature, and capable of secreting milk. During this process of cell division they are more suscepible to carcinogens (cancer causing agents). If the pregnancy continues to full term the woman's breasts are then fully mature, the cells stop dividing rapidly and this counterbalances the initial surge of oestrogen. However, if the woman has an abortion, that natural process is interrupted. Her breast cells remain immature and are more susceptible to breast cancer.

Other studies agree with this position: In Brazil, more breast cancer patients reported having had abortions than did the control group. The rate of breast cancer among women in Finland increased with the number of abortions. The risk among Italian women with one of more legal abortions before a first live birth was increased by 42 percent. Among Chinese women who developed breast cancer before the age of 40, abortion before first full-term pregnancy led to an increased risk of 140 percent. The Soviets have one of the world's highest abortion rates and the incidence of breast cancer among Russian, Estonian and Soviet Georgian women tripled between 1960 and 1987. 14 Can South Africa afford the cost?

Even legal abortions are bad for you and unsafe...

"There are many complications that may arise from an abortion. It is not a 'quick fix' at all. The complications include: Ectopic pregnancies, Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (reported in up to 30% of all cases11), subsequent infertility and miscarriages, future premature births (often because of a cervix that was damaged during the previous abortion), small-for-dates babies and placenta praevia, which is 7-15 times more common among women who have had abortions than among those who have not."

Reference:
"Induced Abortion: A Risk Factor for Placental Praevia." by Jeffrey M Barrett, MD, American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, December 1981, p769

If children are viewed as expendable before birth, they will be viewed as expendable after birth. A study by Dr Phillip Ney, Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Christ Church, New Zealand, clearly pointed to the fact that abortion (and its acceptance of the violence of killing the unborn) lowered a parent's psychic resistance to violence and abuse of the born.

Reference:
Relationship Between Abortion and Child Abuse" by Dr P Ney. Canada Journal of Psychiatry, vol 24, 1979, p610-620

Would you say it is alright to murder a human being, as long as it is not a person???

Suburbanite · #47 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturemomma

LMAO!LMAO!

First of all - it's MASAI, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I was in the peace corps for 4 years, I lived with some of the people, ya got no clue buddy, so just quit while you are behind...

They have puberty ceremonies, until that time, sex is forbidden.

Tell me, have you ever participated in any of the rituals these people practice? Nope.

You just make shit up!! Did you think you could come on this board and throw your bullshit out here and everyone would buy it? Because really, who knows anything about the people you have chosen to insult, with your bullshit rheteric? Well, I do, you stupid cocksuker.

Okay, some reasons why you're a moron.
1. You correct MY SPELLING OF A WORD THAT COMES FROM A LANGUAGE WITH NO WRITTEN FORM! How dumb. Also, if you knew anything about linguistics you'd know my spelling is more appropriate.
2. They do have a history of practicing exactly what I explained, feel free to look that information up. A quote from an online article about the maasai: "When a young woman reaches puberty she is usually married immediately to an older man. Until this time, however, she may live and have sex with the youthful warriors."
So I guess peace corp was a waste of my tax dollars when it came to sending your retarded ass over there. I'm sure you REALLY helped a lot! syke, bitch.

Suburbanite · #48 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Hey, someone else finally sticks it to him for supporting underage sex, nice going. More than likely, sub is a sex offender. But, can we try to keep the debate on track : /

keep your fantasies about sticking it to me in the gay forum, alright buddy?

i find it pathetic that you would make a post entirely out of spite toward me. wheres your jesus love now dipshit?

naturemomma · #49 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburbanite

Okay, some reasons why you're a moron.
1. You correct MY SPELLING OF A WORD THAT COMES FROM A LANGUAGE WITH NO WRITTEN FORM! How dumb. Also, if you knew anything about linguistics you'd know my spelling is more appropriate.
2. They do have a history of practicing exactly what I explained, feel free to look that information up. A quote from an online article about the maasai: "When a young woman reaches puberty she is usually married immediately to an older man. Until this time, however, she may live and have sex with the youthful warriors."
So I guess peace corp was a waste of my tax dollars when it came to sending your retarded ass over there. I'm sure you REALLY helped a lot! syke, bitch.

Wrong cocksucker! And by the way, reading some bullshit in a book is far different than living people you dumb piece of worthless shit!!!!!!

And by the way... It's the Peace Corps..... Dipshit!!!! Bahahahahaahaha!!!!

Suburbanite · #50 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:41 PM

lol, wrong? thats all you have to say? you;re a fucking moron, look it up whenever you're ready. Oh, you just read it in a book, how would you know? Of course I know, bitch, why would being there help you know this any better, you think the kids are going to fuck in front of you? you'd like that, but not a chance in hell. fuck you cunt, you couldn't be more wrong