At what point do humans cease to be humane?

Suburbanite · #11 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Child molesters, castrated. Life in jail. Because that is what they have done to the child imprissoned them in torment for the rest of their lives.

I know I'm about to sound like a total pedophile, but there is a lot of statistical evidence to show that child molestation or rape do not have a direct correlation with, as you put it, torment or rather trauma. It is, according to something called the Rand Report, a direct result of negative social stimuli applied to the child. Often children, unlike shown on TV, do not react as negatively about molestation until they're informed of its social implications and societies moral attitudes. It is at this time where the person starts to experience Trauma. Unfortunately, much of human history involves a lot of rape and molestation of our own children, one could take it to a sick degree and even suggest its "human nature". But I wouldn't.
The Rand report is most frightening because of its thoroughness and scope.

wolf_22 · #12 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

I would say it all begins when we no longer value human life above all but righteousness. Sure mankind is infamous for wanting what we want at the expense of others. Tell me though; would you not imprison a mother for whoring out her 13 year old daughter? Who you not want to death penalty for a mother who drowns her newborn in a bathtub? The atrocities are none like the horror we commit today. Not to build a case for the above mentioned, but perhaps the mother of the thirteen year old had a similar event happen in her youth, as we all know statistics show a person’s youth structures their adulthood. And the mother who drowned her newborn simply lost it due to having a sixteen hour work day, and being a single mother.

Both should be tried in the court of law and be convicted for their crimes. But we as a society see nothing wrong with robbing life from the womb of a woman for her own benefit. As history has shown, as society devalues it declines. First with morals and ethics, then soon comes the economy, and finally total upheaval. We, just as our predecessors of Rome believe we are above this, but I guarantee you my friend, the means will justify our end.

People will forever argue for their own needs; I am too poor, I am too hungry, I am too ugly. What abortion comes down to is…

*I don’t have the money
*I don’t want to lose all of my free time
*I can’t have a social life with a kid

Tell me, what if your parents had the choice at this very moment; to recollect every dime they ever spent on you, for our purposes, lets say it is $1,000,000. Now, let’s say if they take you to a doctor and have you euthanized, they get this money. And the law states that they may do so, who you feel they had a right to do it?

If something is growing, it is alive in a sense. We lose all humanity in this debate, because those who are pro-choice are not pro-love, or pro-caring. They are self-indulgent people, who with to have what they want, regardless of the cost. In allowing our teens, and young adults have abortions, we are telling them that human life is no more valuable than that of your dog from childhood that was put down because it was an inconvenience.

If you care about the future of this nation, and the children born in it, then stop abortion. Hell it may even help many of our other societal problems.

-STD’s
-Teen Pregnancy
-Murder Rates
-Violent crimes
-And more

Tell me, what do we lose if we end the right of abortion?
-Promiscuous sex: Hell, I like it, I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I could look into a childs eyes and tell them they had to die because I wanted to screw that hot chick from the bar.

What do we gain? Look up!

I have no idea where child prostituion ties in to all this. obviously thats wrong
children are'nt mature enough for sexual activity and no one deserve to have their bodies used for anything without their permission.
whether we are talking about medical doning, sex, pregnancy, or abortion its not up to anyone else to decide what happens to another's body.

morals and ethics vary not just by society but by person to person. we can't say we ever loose morals or ethics unless we are speaking in a person sense or if we are talking about a particular group who agreed to a certain principle.
abortion has been around since people began to get pregnant and since we began to keep a record of history.
it was more popular in the 1800s (not just in terms of how often but in how common it was to speak of) that in the 1900s.
people have different definitions of life. people have different views on reproductive rights and people have different views on what is more humane.

abortion is a very hard choice. it should be rare. its never an easy thing to grample with. and sometimes its the best option
no one has the right to judge why people choose this. they take on the burden of that choice. its rude and arrogant (boardering on Hubris) to assume you know why people make that choice.
and it is hubris to assume that everyone who is pro-choice thinks the same or is uncaring. perhaps you could think of something other than a fetus when it comes to being a humanitarian.

abortion lowers crime rate. look that up.
we gain nothing by outlawing abortion.
poor women will suffer either through unplanned and unwanted pregnancies or unsafe abortions. rich women will countinue to get safe abortions. women will be one step closer to being property again. the government will run another part of our lives.
children who may be mistreated will be born to irresponcible parents. crime rates will rise. more children will suffer from bad conditions.
every child should be born into a home that not only wants them but can provide for them.

obviously you only want to see the issue from one side. abortion is very complex and should be treated in a complex manner

Suburbanite · #13 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 03:48 AM

Wolf
in the Maasai culture of Kenya, children are allowed and encouraged to have any form of sex amongst one another. However, at the time of puberty, once on is capable of bearing children, they're required to get married.

i disagree that children aren't "mature" enough for sexual activity, it is our society which is not mature enough. How many children masturbate? all of 'em. Its more natural than you've demonized it to be.

FreedomForWho · #14 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 04:17 AM

Yup everything you said about the church there is true I'd say. However, I think you might want to research Rome a little more. Riots are bred from violence, for example.

How many peaceful people begin riots?

Precisely, just as a morally declined society breeds violence.

Ex.
You care nothing about your fellow man, so what is to keep you from harming him?

A morally and ethically founded society would not struggle in this nature, because they would care for their fellow man.

But ultimately, you are on the right road I guess. In the sense of which came first the chicken or the egg.

Rome fell to multiple armies, but it was due to a lack of unity among the people, and they way they expanded themselves so abruptly and abroad. Unity is found within morality, a common bond among people. Morals can be found in just about every positive type of unification. So the lack of these morals will cause a rift among people, leading to flaw and inevitably disaster.

But please, even though you submited in thise debate, don't let that stop you from researching further.

Suburbanite · #15 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Yup everything you said about the church there is true I'd say. However, I think you might want to research Rome a little more. Riots are bred from violence, for example.

How many peaceful people begin riots?

Precisely, just as a morally declined society breeds violence.

Ex.
You care nothing about your fellow man, so what is to keep you from harming him?

A morally and ethically founded society would not struggle in this nature, because they would care for their fellow man.

But ultimately, you are on the right road I guess. In the sense of which came first the chicken or the egg.

Rome fell to multiple armies, but it was due to a lack of unity among the people, and they way they expanded themselves so abruptly and abroad. Unity is found within morality, a common bond among people. Morals can be found in just about every positive type of unification. So the lack of these morals will cause a rift among people, leading to flaw and inevitably disaster.

But please, even though you submited in thise debate, don't let that stop you from researching further.

I don't personally ascribe morals to anything. Being an atheist, I am well aware of the religious contingency of morality, and feel it is an unnecessary outdated form of law. Since we live in a modern society full of laws and law enforcers there is no need to also back up violent actions with a concept of "bad". Its too vague, and its vagueness is directly responsible for some incredibly unlawful and inhumane acts.
Further, you asked if any peaceful people start riots. This is a perfect example of where morality can trip you up. Your question is faulty, you're assuming there is a property called peacefulness intrinsically and universally ascribed to a human. There is no such thing, peace is contingent on the environment, and almost anyone can be driven into violence including riots.
As for unity, I again disagree. One does not need morality to find solidarity. During world war two, after the occupation of Poland in one town the towns people and citizenry quickly renounced their Jewish neighbors. In a near by town, they hid those same Jewish neighbors. Now, with your vocabulary, the second town is full of more peaceful people. However, as this clearly doesn't give much significant insight, I purpose instead my interpretation, that highly idiosyncratic events between the Jews and towns people resulted in a sense of solidarity, of kin ship. This solidarity does not come from one's "goodness", but instead it comes from their relating to one another, making friends of each other. Two towns, two nearly identical situations, cultural nuances, history, yet still different outcomes. You'd have be think it was just because those second towns people were good?

FreedomForWho · #16 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 05:11 AM

Well, morality is a bit hard to discuss with someone who they themselves refute having any. However, I believe that if you address some of these points, you will indeed realise that you have a sense of morality about you, although you may not realise it.

*You see a stranger, shot and bleeding on the street, do you help him?
*An old enemy of yours needs a blood transfusion or he will die, will you give it to him? ( You yourself will only suffer minor nausea)
*An old woman infront of you, 80+ years of age drops $20 on the ground, and doesn't notice. She is dressed is raggy apparel, give it back or keep it.

Answer these, then we can proceed.

FreedomForWho · #17 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburbanite

I know I'm about to sound like a total pedophile, but there is a lot of statistical evidence to show that child molestation or rape do not have a direct correlation with, as you put it, torment or rather trauma. It is, according to something called the Rand Report, a direct result of negative social stimuli applied to the child. Often children, unlike shown on TV, do not react as negatively about molestation until they're informed of its social implications and societies moral attitudes. It is at this time where the person starts to experience Trauma. Unfortunately, much of human history involves a lot of rape and molestation of our own children, one could take it to a sick degree and even suggest its "human nature". But I wouldn't.
The Rand report is most frightening because of its thoroughness and scope.

Just noticed this, sorry. I have had girlfriends in which our relationship could no longer continue because of the trauma they had dealt with in their child years. I will give you this, everyone reacts differently. But the greater majority are effected strongly by it, though it does take courage and strength for them to overcome to event.

I meant think about it man, when you are a kid, you put faith in people. As a child, your development is key, and anything you learn builds your character as an adult. Many rape and molestation victims never think about sex the same way, many can never feel secure with a member of the gender they were abused by. I could pull the statistics, but I'm sure you can agree with these things.

Suburbanite · #18 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Just noticed this, sorry. I have had girlfriends in which our relationship could no longer continue because of the trauma they had dealt with in their child years. I will give you this, everyone reacts differently. But the greater majority are effected strongly by it, though it does take courage and strength for them to overcome to event.

I meant think about it man, when you are a kid, you put faith in people. As a child, your development is key, and anything you learn builds your character as an adult. Many rape and molestation victims never think about sex the same way, many can never feel secure with a member of the gender they were abused by. I could pull the statistics, but I'm sure you can agree with these things.

you're right, a child is forming his impression of the world at an exhilarated rate. But it is not the world which will cause him trauma, only having it crash down on him when he finds out how sick it was. the thing you have to understand, is that it feels good to be molested. its sick, but it is true. so they're of course going to suffer when they find out their source of pleasure is instead a source of embarrassment. on an island with only a dad and his daughter, she'll never feel the effects of any trauma were he to molest her.

Suburbanite · #19 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForWho

Well, morality is a bit hard to discuss with someone who they themselves refute having any. However, I believe that if you address some of these points, you will indeed realise that you have a sense of morality about you, although you may not realise it.

*You see a stranger, shot and bleeding on the street, do you help him?
*An old enemy of yours needs a blood transfusion or he will die, will you give it to him? ( You yourself will only suffer minor nausea)
*An old woman infront of you, 80+ years of age drops $20 on the ground, and doesn't notice. She is dressed is raggy apparel, give it back or keep it.

Answer these, then we can proceed.

Help, unless the gunmen is still there
Let him die
Give it back

Whereas you would classify my actions as having a "moral" quality to them, i submit it is equally as possible to have other reasons behind my choices. why does it have to fit within the dichotomy of good/evil or good/bad? Can't it fit within the dichotomy of helpful/harmful?

FreedomForWho · #20 (**permalink**) 04-27-2008, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburbanite

you're right, a child is forming his impression of the world at an exhilarated rate. But it is not the world which will cause him trauma, only having it crash down on him when he finds out how sick it was. the thing you have to understand, is that it feels good to be molested. its sick, but it is true. so they're of course going to suffer when they find out their source of pleasure is instead a source of embarrassment. on an island with only a dad and his daughter, she'll never feel the effects of any trauma were he to molest her.

But...were not on an island, we are a land comprised of men and women who seek justice and equality, allowing children to be tortured by those who are acting only on their own accord is wrong. And it does not necessarily feel good, and alot of children say no, because they are taught that this area is private. So they know at the time it is occuring, what this person is doing is wrong, that is when the trauma is most strong.

But even on an island, mankind has a sense of right and wrong, that is indeed undeniable. You feel it when you have wronged someone.