Does the fetus have the right to live by constitution?

PaleRider · #**521** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superhorn

Abortion is not the same thing as murder or rape; these are
genuine crimes against another person. Not every one considers abortion to be a crime. I certainly don't. Permitting abortion is
nothing like permitting rape and murder. And how the heck will we
enforce the law if it does become illegal again ? You tell me please.
They sure as heck can't in Brazil, the world's largest Catholic nation
where it's illegal. And they have more abortion there than in
America.

Can you demonstrate in any real way that abortion is not a crime against a human being. Can you substantiate that argument in any way at all?

Abortion denies the most fundamental right a human being has (the right to live) to a human being.

PaleRider · #**522** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towelie

You're comparing apples to oranges, pal. Susan Smith had living, breathing children. Of course most anyone would try to help save them.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

Both mothers killed human beings. Still waiting for you to demonstrate in any way that unborns are not living human beings.

PaleRider · #**523** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towelie

You're right. All that changes is more women die in illegal abortions. Outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortion.

Outlawing murder, arson, and armed robbery doesn't stop them either. Should we make them legal because of that?

PaleRider · #**524** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Atcha

Fallacious comparison is the last resort of a dead argument. The idea that those two situations are even remotely similar in your mind is... well, mind boggling.

Both involve one individual killing another with intent. There is no fallacy there. Attempting to make the two different is, however, a fallacy on your part because you must beg the question and simply assume that unborns are not living human beings the same as the children who were drowned in the car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Atcha

Let me throw a back atcha... atcha... If all life is sacred to you, then you oppose all war? even war of self defense? Even if you were certain not to be killed in the war if you remained far behind the lines, would you refuse to fight and defend your homeland? How about if I send a letter to the president telling him that every person opposed to abortion demands we stop all wars for the sake of sanctity of life. Is that cool with you?

And you pile logical fallacy upon logical fallacy here. What one believes with regard to war has nothing at all to do with the fact that abortion is one individual killing another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Atcha

See how silly those comparisons are? Not the same thing at all is it?

Of course they aren't. Yours amount to nothing more than logical fallacy while the original analogy is perfectly valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Atcha

Can you show me that a fetus has free will?

A newborn has no more free will than it did as a fetus. The newborn, however, enjoys the protection of the law until it is old enough to exercise its free will. The ability to exercise a right has nothing at all to do with the posession of that right.

PaleRider · #**525** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey

Once sperm is successful in uniting with the egg a human being is in the making. From that point on and until that being reaches the age of 18 the parents hold responsibility of this human being. The parents are supported by constitutional rights.

First, once sperm and egg unite, a new human being exists. The "making" part is called fertilization. Once fertilization is complete, the making is done and all that is left is growth and maturation and that process isn't complete for any of us until we are in our late 20's.

Parents have no constitutional right to kill their children. No individual has a constitutional right to kill another individual unless it is in self defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey

Asking if a fetus is a human is like sitting in front of an egg and asking if it is a chicken.

Do you really know so little about developmental biology? If you are talking about grocery store eggs, then you are right in that they are just eggs. The hens on egg farms don't get to meet roosters. If, however, you pick up an egg from one of my chickens (who meet roosters), after she has been setting for a few days and crack it open, the bloody mess you find inside will tell you in no uncertain terms that it wasn't "just an egg".

dolphinocean · #**526** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superhorn

Abortion is not the same thing as murder or rape; these are
genuine crimes against another person. Not every one considers abortion to be a crime. I certainly don't. Permitting abortion is
nothing like permitting rape and murder. And how the heck will we
enforce the law if it does become illegal again ? You tell me please.
They sure as heck can't in Brazil, the world's largest Catholic nation
where it's illegal. And they have more abortion there than in
America.

Where is your proof that killing an unborn human life is not killing another person? Therefore, until you have proof you can't declare that permitting abortion is nothing like permitting rape and murder. Having said that, my previous comment was about your nonsense premise that "making abortion illegal will never stop it". If we were to accept that premise, then society might as well throw in the towel against war on drugs, prostitution, robbery, rape, and murder etc. Please don't evade from your premise into something esle to cover for your insufficiency.

PaleRider · #**527** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolphinocean

Where is your proof that killing an unborn human life is not killing another person? Therefore, until you have proof you can't declare that permitting abortion is nothing like permitting rape and murder. Having said that, my previous comment was about your nonsense premise that "making abortion illegal will never stop it". If we were to accept that premise, then society might as well throw in the towel against war on drugs, prostitution, robbery, rape, and murder etc. Please don't evade from your premise into something esle to cover for your insufficiency.

The pro choice argument is one logical fallacy after another. Most, as superhorn's does, beg the question and simply assume that unborns are not living human beings. When challenged to provide proof that unborns are something other than human beings, they invariably are unable to meet the challenge.

dolphinocean · #**528** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towelie

You're comparing apples to oranges, pal. Susan Smith had living, breathing children. Of course most anyone would try to help save them.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

What apples to oranges? Until you have proven your case and proved that the unborn is anything but a human being, then killing the unborn and killing the children are the same, i.e. killing a human being. Constantly harping a lie doesn't make a lie comes true, you know.

dolphinocean · #**529** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Atcha

Fallacious comparison is the last resort of a dead argument. The idea that those two situations are even remotely similar in your mind is... well, mind boggling.

Let me throw a back atcha... atcha... If all life is sacred to you, then you oppose all war? even war of self defense? Even if you were certain not to be killed in the war if you remained far behind the lines, would you refuse to fight and defend your homeland? How about if I send a letter to the president telling him that every person opposed to abortion demands we stop all wars for the sake of sanctity of life. Is that cool with you?

See how silly those comparisons are? Not the same thing at all is it?

Can you show me that a fetus has free will? Not fallacious justification, but honest to God free will. I bet I can show that Smith's kids did. Without invoking any high minded gobbeldy gook. Furthermore, I do not need to sit in judgement of Smith to recognize that her children are in need of help.

What fallacious comparison? You wrote a fallacious and undefined statement that you will not sit in judgment of others but apparently you do when it comes to people murdering their children such as Susan Smith. Another falsehood is that you falsely assumed everybody believes like you do that killing the unborn is not the same as killing born children. You know that's not true and given that we have this debate here, why lie?
Now, the argument was about your universal declaration that you "cannot and will not sit in judgement of others". Even if we suspend the argument regarding the status of the unborn, would you not sit in judgment of others if the others were torturing and killing a puppy?

And when did I ever declare that all life is sacred to me? Don't even go there in order to evade the actual issue here.

Towelie · #**530** (**permalink**) 07-11-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolphinocean

What apples to oranges? Until you have proven your case and proved that the unborn is anything but a human being, then killing the unborn and killing the children are the same, i.e. killing a human being. Constantly harping a lie doesn't make a lie comes true, you know.

It's not the same thing at all, moron. Deep down you know that.