Abortion hasn't cheapened life. Poverty, war, ignorance and prejudice cheapen life. Moralistic preaching about 'killing human beings' is a smoke screen for attempts by men to control women. Nothing more and nothing less.

and a fetus has no rights period--- including the right to usurp someone's body and mess with their lives.

if you want to get technical its not killing anyone. if I'm a landlord and I kick a tentent out and they end up freezing to death, its not my problem. if a woman kicks a fetus out and its ends up 'dying', its not the woman's fault.

see this is what I don't get with these anti-choicers.
almost everyone country has legal, regulated abortion. ncluding elective abotions.
abortions have been around for thousands of years.
up until the 1800s we used to abort anytime before quickening- we've added a lot more limitis since then. if anything the past had more abortion than we do now.
we've also shown that coutries that outlaw abortion don't stop it. the rich leave to get safe, legal abortions. the poor induce miscarriage or have 'back-alley abortions'.
if you don't wnat there to be so many abortions- promote birth control, education, and protect pregnant chicks from discrimination. you'll see a large drop in abortion rates, I promise.

Here is what I find disturbing why do we need a piece of paper or law to tell us that a human being has a right to life and that any human being or beings that take it upon themselves to have sex should bear the responsability not erase it like a word on a paper. Ah mankind we have truely evolved you need words on a paper to know in your heart and mind what is right and wrong.

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

Spot on 36. We are basically telling our kids they are worthless by being "abortable".

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTQfERb9HVk For my sis.....

Clearly, you don't know the difference between philosophy and scientific fact. When I ask for credible science that states that the child is part of your body, that is what I am asking for. For example, I say that the child is not part of your body but is an individual, living human being from the time it is concieved. In saying that, I can rightly be expected to provide some proof. OK. Here is proof.

"an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology” T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed.

This is from a medical textbook on the subject of embryology. Note that the child is identified as "A HUMAN BEING" rather than a part of its mother's body until it is born. If the child were a part of its mother's body, it would be identified as such. This is not philosophical, it is hard science.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.


This is from the New England Journal of Medicine. One of the most respected medical journals in the world. It states that the child is "A HUMAN BEING". An individual, not a part of a larger being. It is alive and is an indivudal member of our species. Again, not philosophical but hard science.


" A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.(Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company), 2-18.


This, again, is a medical school textbook on the subject of embryology. It has been translated into at least 8 languages for use in medical schools around the world. It states that conception marks the beginning of each of us as an "INDIVIDUAL". Not our beginning as a part of our mother's body.

There are lots more, but these should suffice. Now, if you believe that the child is a part of your body until it is born, and this is a biological fact, then you should be able to provide some credible science that states that the child is a part of your body. If you can, then fine, you have an argument and we can continue along this vein. If you can't provide any credible science that states that the child is "PART" of your body, then be a grown up and conceed the point. Dependent, however, does not mean part of.

You keep saying that as if it were true. I have provided 3 highly credible medical sources that say you are wrong. Once again, I do invite you to provide some credible science that states that the child is nothing more than an extention of your life until it is born.

Now that legal precedent exists, and the fact that it is a steadily growing body, it is a bit late to begin the fight, especially in the light of the new conservative face of the Supreme Court. A court that is much more likely to actually look at the constitution rather than invent rights to satisfy thier pre existing agenda.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Poverty and war make life more difficult but do not cheapen it. I will agree that ignorance and predjudice cheapen it. The pro choice argument is built upon ignorance and prejudice and abortion has most certainly cheapened life. When a living human being can be killed for any or no reason without legal conseqence, life has been cheapened to a degree that we have not seen in thousands of years.

Your insistence that the child is nothing more than a part of your body and does not have its own life in the face of any amount of modern science that says you are wrong is a perfect example of the ignorance that the pro choice argument is built on. And at some point in these discussions, the fact that unborns are immature and don't "look like" us or "act like" us is injected into the question. They are undeniably human beings but the fact that they don't "look like" us or "act like" us is given as a valid reason to kill them. If that doesn't precisely fit the definition of prejudice then what does.

ALso, hard science that states explicitly that we are living, individual human beings from the time we are concieved is not moralistic preaching and calling it such is just one more example of the ignorance that cheapens human life.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

The fetus is mine until it is born. In my womb, using my body for oxygen and nourishment. It is under my physical control. It can physically harm my body. That makes it part of me, no matter which criteria you are using to define 'part of'. It does not exist apart from me. That makes it mine to do with as I will. I don't need 'credible sources' to prove that. The courts may restrict Roe, but I don't believe they will overturn it outright. The Constitution of the country I live in embodies a right to privacy. Abortions will continue one way or another. It may be interesting though to see, if and when restrictions are placed on Roe, if the states/government can be forced to pay for the unwanted child once it is born. Either way, this will never be settled, this is a control issue. It has nothing to do with whether the fetus is a 'part of the mother' or a 'human being'. Men want control of women, simple as that.

Of course poverty and war cheapen life. We do little to stop either. Those lives mean little, which cheapens life for all of us.

Astounding isn't it? All these war mongers and anti social program people are always carrying on about abortion clinics. Yet the birth control pill acts as a abortion agent as well and you never hear a peep out of them about all those frozen fetuses in fertility clinics.

They are hypocrites to be sure. But I disagree that control is the issue.

I believe they have to have things to hate and look dowm upon so they can in their own minds elevate their own status. This is the only way their war mongering , let everybody starve , but don't get a abortion thinking can be understood.

Like men with penis envy of others,
they must be bigger and better.


And make no mistake it is not just men that act this way. I have met plenty of women with the same psychosis. hope the women don't have the penis envy but maybe they do .

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At least those kids don't know that, they have not been born yet.

Better than you hypocrites who cheer while bombs drop and kill babies in countries half a world away. ...............That are already alive and breathing.

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