All right you nut case palerider.

You have provided links to discussions I have had on this forum about ensoulment and abortion.

Take a look at the links you provided nut case. Most of them are not my own , they come from learned biblical scholars who speak about the issue.

I provided them mostly for you who obviously has never bothered to read the bible yourself in the hope that since you don't want to take my word for it you would listen to men far more versed in the bible than either you or I .

These links come from places like My Jewish Learning, 1Thomas Bokenkotter, A Concise History of the Catholic Church, Doubleday, 1990, p. 51.Abortion," Encyclopedia Americana, Americana Corporation, 1971.Rabbi Charles Briskin
January 31, 2003

Some are in my own words, but most are not as I felt men of faith who knew the bible would carry more weight among some people here.

And by the way palerider your proven a liar again. I did not use the verses from exodus ten times in the links your provided, they weren't even used ten times by the scholars whose links I provided . That is all in your imagination . I told you your buddy bluedog brought those verses up and tried to say a man should be killed because he caused a miscarriage accidentally. I said he was reading the verses wrong and provided him with 4 biblical scholars opinion besides my own that he was reading them wrong.

That is not ten times nut case.

Nor should it matter how many times we discuss the same verses if we are discussing the bible.

I know it just kills you palerider because some people who know the bible and serve Christ know that God is not allowing little souls to be frozen in fertility clinics across this world. Nor is God allowing abortion to rob the world of souls he decreed would be born. I know palerider since you have made it a mission to decry abortion , welfare and any social program that feeds people , it just kills you that your message straight from satan is challenged. .............................Tough, satans messages are always challenged.


Now you psychotic man, thanks for showing just how psychotic you are and collecting some of my threads for me here. That makes them nice and handy for me to recopy in this thread so the world can see what they are again thanks to you palerider.

I might not have taken the time to collect them up myself.

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Thanks to palerider my stalker who has gathered some of my threads together for me , I can repost them for re consideration without any effort on my part at all.

Thank you O' psychotic pale rider.

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But in the mean time here are a few articles for the religious among us to consider.

beliefnet: The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion

beliefnet: The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion
The Biblical Basis for
Being Pro-Choice
The Bible never mentions abortion, but it does offer support for choice.
By Marjorie Brahms Signer
The 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion, created a huge amount of misinformation about the nature of being pro-choice. Starting with President Bush's proclamation of National Sanctity of Human Life Day, the purpose seems to be to portray those who are pro-choice as godless and heartless. But being pro-choice is firmly grounded in the Bible.
Who is pro-choice and religious? Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law. They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.]

Religions have many different--and changing--tenets about abortion. Some oppose abortion in all cases because they believe human life begins when an egg and sperm meet. They hold this belief even though medical science defines pregnancy as beginning with the implantation of the fertilized egg. Others believe abortion must be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Some believe abortion is required in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's life is in danger.

Many religions believe the decision must be the woman's because she is the person most affected.

Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus. Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's will.

The Bible tells us that God acts within human beings to set us free and enable us to assume responsibility for ourselves. If we make wrong choices, God forgives us. Humans, by the grace of God, have developed medicine, surgery, and psychiatry to prolong and enhance life. These same medical approaches can be chosen to prolong or enhance the life of a woman for whom a specific pregnancy would be dangerous.



All Jewish authorities base their understanding of the Jewish view of abortion on two basic Jewish principles--that preserving life is of paramount importance, and that the fetus does not possess the same status as a living woman. Most Jewish thinkers throughout history have held that when a woman's life or health is at stake, abortion is permissible and sometimes even mandatory, regardless of the stage of fetal development.

Together, pro-choice Christians and Jews base their views on these biblical principles:

Stewardship. Genesis tells us we are created in God's image and that with that gift comes the responsibility for ".every living thing that moves upon the earth" (1:27-28). It follows that, as moral agents, women have the God-given obligation to make decisions about the course of action that seems most responsible in cases of unwelcome pregnancy.

Free will. Created in God's image, we are endowed with the ability to make moral choices. This ability is the very basis of an individual's dignity and autonomy.

Personhood. The Bible's portrait of personhood centers on the woman and man who bear the image of God and live in responsible relation to God.

The sanctity of life. All religions revere life. It is because we believe in the sanctity of all human life that we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy on women and families. We pray for a world in which every child is wanted, loved, and cared for. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life that we believe a child has the right to enter the world wanted and loved. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy upon individual women, upon their loved ones and their families, and we recognize that they, not we, must determine what is best for those directly concerned and involved.

Respect. The Bible places full responsibility for procreation in the hands of parents. Requiring a woman to complete a pregnancy against her will devalues motherhood and shows lack of respect for women.

Religious Liberty. Religious Americans honor the dignity and value of all human life but recognize that different religious traditions hold a variety of views regarding when life begins and when ensoulment occurs. In this nation all are free to live according to their consciences and religious beliefs. No one religious philosophy should govern the law for all Americans.

In conclusion, being pro-choice is not being pro-abortion. Bishop Melvin Talbert of the United Methodist Church put it this way in a 1996 sermon: "In reality, there are many of us who believe that choice is the most logical and the most responsible position any religious institution can take on this issue. My sisters and brothers, we are dealing with something that is deeply spiritual and cannot be left to those who would choose to politicize this issue and further victimize those who must ultimately decide for themselves."
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What does the Bible say about abortion?


What does the Bible say about abortion?

The Bible
Opinions
Issues
Avoiding Self-righteousness
Church Doctrine


The Bible
Abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted under Roman law at the time of Jesus1. Surprisingly, abortion is never mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has been practiced throughout recorded human history. However, a number of Bible passages may be relevant. These verses and others are often cited as evidence that a fetus is truly a living human being, and deserving the same protection:

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (NIV, Luke 1:39-44)

Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (NAS, Jeremiah 1:4-5)

I will say to God: ... "Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? (NIV, Job 10:2, 8-9)

Several other verses are cited as evidence that a fetus is not a living being. Life is equated with breath throughout the Bible, and this passage seems to suggest that a person is not living until he or she takes a first breath after birth:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

This passage from Exodus seems to say that causing death to a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing death to a person:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

A literal translation of the Hebrew of this passage would be "cause her offspring to be brought forth." It is commonly thought that a miscarriage was meant, but it could mean an early birth where the child survived. Thus, this passage is cited both for and against abortion.

The Bible gives direct guidance on many, many topics, but not on abortion. None of the passages above (nor the many others often cited) were originally intended as statements about abortion, so any conclusions drawn from them represent opinions rather than Biblical evidence.


Opinions
In 1973, the United States Supreme Court, in its Roe v. Wade decision, ruled that a woman has a right to an abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy. However, the 50 states are still allowed to regulate abortion during the second trimester and prohibit it during the third trimester2. Since that time, abortion has become one of the most controversial and divisive issues within society.

Anti-abortion activists represent one extreme of opinion. They believe life begins at the instant of conception. Therefore, abortion is murder and is prohibited by the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13). They strongly support laws banning all or almost all abortions.

However, the belief that life begins at conception does not have clear support from medical science, the Bible, religious tradition or legal tradition. Early Christians apparently did not view abortion as murder until well beyond conception. In the thirteenth century, Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas wrote that a soul enters the body at 40 days after conception for males and 80 days for females. That became church doctrine for many centuries, and abortion before the time of ensoulment was not considered a mortal sin. The belief that life begins at conception apparently has its origins in an 1869 decree by Pope Pius IX that abortion at any point in pregnancy was cause for excommunication.3,4

English common law apparently tolerated abortion until "quickening," the first detectable fetal movements, around the fifth month. Similarly, abortion was largely unregulated in the U.S. until the mid 1800s. Anti-abortion laws were passed around 1900, but the primary reasons had to do with the injuries and deaths resulting from unskilled abortions and a struggle for control of medical practice.5

Pro-choice activists represent the other extreme of opinion. They believe that abortion does not differ fundamentally from other forms of birth control, and they strongly support the right of a woman to make her own choice about abortion, free of any legal constraints. They point out that legal abortion does not force anyone to have an abortion against her will and say that anti-abortion laws amount to forcing a religious doctrine onto people of other faiths.

However, the pro-choice position ignores the fact that many widely accepted laws are the result of moral concerns and that there is a long history of moral opposition to abortion and legal regulation of its practice.6

Public opinion polls in the U.S. consistently show about 25% of people say abortion should be legal in all circumstances. Another 55% favor legal abortion in some circumstances, and about 17% say abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. About 60% are opposed to any additional legal restrictions on abortion.7


Issues
As with society as a whole, Christians are divided on the issue of abortion. The polls show that a majority of people have reservations about both the extreme anti-abortion and pro-choice positions. These are some of the issues that are of concern to that majority:

Morality. Many people have deep and serious doubts about the morality of abortion. At the same time, they believe abortion may be the lesser of evils in some cases. Situations thought to justify abortion include, with varying degrees of acceptance, danger to the mother's life, defective fetus, rape, incest, teen pregnancy, risk to the mother's physical or emotional health, unstable family situations, mental retardation of the mother, etc.
Separation of church and state. Many people with moral objections to abortion believe that opposition to abortion is essentially a religious belief. As such, it is not right to use the law to impose that religious belief on the large segment of people holding different beliefs.
Dangers of illegal abortions. Before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision legalized abortion throughout the U.S., abortions were allowed in some of the states. In 1972, 586,800 legal abortions were performed in those states.8 It is estimated that between 200,000 and 1,200,000 illegal abortions were also performed each year in the U.S.9 Many women living in areas where abortion was not allowed simply traveled to states or countries where abortion was legal to terminate their pregnancies. Those who could not afford that option sought out someone to perform the procedure illegally. If they were lucky, they found a sympathetic doctor willing to perform the abortion. But many illegal abortions were performed by unqualified practitioners, and many women suffered exploitation, sexual abuse, injury, infection and death at the hands of these "back alley" practitioners.10,11,12 Despite some claims to the contrary, the mainstream of medical opinion is that legal abortions are very safe, with less risk to a woman's physical and mental health than continuing a pregnancy.13
Effectiveness of restrictions. Many people who oppose availability of abortion in some or all circumstances are not convinced that legal restrictions are workable. The easy availability of abortion in numerous states and countries plus the option of illegal abortion makes it questionable whether legal restrictions would be very effective. At the same time, such restrictions could bring back the the evils of illegal abortions that have now been almost completely eliminated. Like the prohibition against alcohol from 1920 to 1933, many people believe a prohibition against abortion has the potential to create more evil than that which is eliminated.
Tactics. Neither side has done a good job of explaining its beliefs in a way that appeals to the majority in the middle. Activists on both sides angrily repeat their slogans over and over, but have seldom reached out to understand and address the concerns of those in the middle or on the other side.14 Some politicians exploit the abortion issue for political gain by inflaming people's passions and fears.15 Activists seem unconcerned with the women facing an agonizing choice about abortion, except to the extent they can be exploited to further their cause. A few anti-abortion activists harass and deceive women seeking abortions, illegally blockade clinics, harass doctors and commit acts of violence, including murder. Such actions are clearly against Bible teachings and are not condoned by mainstream Christian denominations. However, the actions of a few have created an unfortunate impression that people who oppose abortion from conscience are dangerous religious fanatics.16,17

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Part 2 What does the Bible say about abortion?


Avoiding Self-righteousness
The strong emotions surrounding the abortion issue may lead those on both sides of the issue into the sin of self-righteousness. Jesus was greatly offended by self-righteous religious people who thought they were better than those they considered "sinners."

The Pharisees were a Jewish sect noted for their strict observance of the laws of God. Tax collectors were among the most despised people in Israel. As agents of the occupying Roman forces they often extorted excess taxes and were considered traitors to their people. That is why Jesus used a Pharisee and a tax collector to illustrate the sin of self-righteousness:

Then [Jesus] told this story to some who boasted of their virtue and scorned everyone else: "Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a proud, self-righteous Pharisee, and the other a cheating tax collector. The proud Pharisee 'prayed' this prayer: 'Thank God, I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don't commit adultery, I go without food twice a week, and I give to God a tenth of everything I earn.' "But the corrupt tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed, but beat upon his chest in sorrow, exclaiming, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner.' I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home forgiven! For the proud shall be humbled, but the humble shall be honored." (TLB, Luke 18:9-14)

Further, Jesus told us to eliminate the sins in our own lives rather than passing judgment or looking down on others. For if we judge other people harshly, we will, in turn, be judged harshly by God:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)

Christians have a responsibility to correct matters of wrongdoing among themselves (Matthew 18:15-17), but this should always be done fairly and with compassion. We are never to take upon ourselves the task of judgment that belongs to God alone (Hebrews 10:30, Romans 14:10-13, 1 Corinthians 4:5.)

As Christians, we need to remember that we are all sinners in God's eyes, and that God loves all His children, even those who believe differently than we do. We cannot afford to let our strong feelings on abortion issues blind us to Jesus' commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:36-39).


Church Doctrine
Many churches, including United Church of Christ,18 Episcopal,19 Presbyterian (USA)20 and United Methodist, do not approve of abortion as a means of birth control. However, they support the right of a woman to obtain an abortion, if she deems that is the best choice in her circumstances, and they favor keeping abortion legal. Other churches, including Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist, oppose all abortions and favor making abortion illegal. Here is a sampling of official church positions from the three largest denominations in the U.S.:

Roman Catholic:

2270. Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

2271. Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.
From Catechism of the Catholic Church, (c) 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc., U.S. Catholic Bishops - Office for the Catechism


Southern Baptist:

Procreation is a gift from God, a precious trust reserved for marriage. At the moment of conception, a new being enters the universe, a human being, a being created in God's image. This human being deserves our protection, whatever the circumstances of conception.
From Position Statements, Copyright (c) 1999 - 2001, Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, Southern Baptist Convention - Reaching the World for Christ


United Methodist:

The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant abortion. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth. Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.
From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶161J. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House, Still in Production - UMC.org

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Thanks O' Pale wonder Liar. That is a good idea.

From now on I don't need to waste my time posting to you.

All I need do is post the writings of thousands of biblical scholars who have already addressed this topic.

They do it better than I could anyway.

great that is settled.

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I haven't seen him lie yet, but I have seen you lie quite a few times. Not only that, the "thousands" of biblical scholars who have addressed these questions can be countered with "thousands" of biblical scholars who have differed with them.

Secondly, you pervert the scriptures to fit what you want them to say, simple as that. You are ignorant and you are a liar.

When you are asked straight forward questions you avoid them like the plague because you simply cannot defend your positions.

Although you tell him you are "done" with him, I suspect that is a lie as well.

Until I see an Amendment added to the Constitution saying yay or nay to Abortion. I will simply hold the correct position that Abortion Legislation is to be delegated to the State Governments.

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The supreme court has stuck down state bans on abortion satv.

So it appears unless you reform the federal government and the supreme court who seem to think they have the right to tell the states what to do your out of luck.


Now me I agree with you. I hate that blacks were enslaved. But would have had to fight on the souths side during the civil war. The federal government does not take precedence over state law as far as I am concerned. But you can't prove that by the federal laws and the way the supreme court has sided with the federal government.

State governance I am all for.

Cut the federal government back to size is the only way to cure what ails this country.

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The value of a single human soul is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sorry, but that's a fact.

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-rice "hussein" chickie

Yes it is. Killers may not view human life or a soul as significant so they killed people. Fortunately we have things called laws to stop or arrest those who do not respect human life. Why? Our society clearly operates on the premise that there is something special, unique and noble in being human, the philosophical basis for such a conclusion grows increasingly vague. Almost everyone lives on the assumption that human life does matter, but if you press them, very few are able to tell you why. Even the earth-worshippers who decry the destructive environmental influence of the human species rarely put their rhetoric into action and actually kill themselves. People can say that human beings are no more valuable than slugs, but nobody really lives like that. We are all born with the innate conviction that our life does matter. We must protect and promote this line of thinking through laws and discussion. It's the only way a society can survive.

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If you were born after 1972 you are a Survivor of the Abortion Holocaust. 1/3 of your generation has been killed by abortion in America!