Does the fetus have the right to live by constitution?

wvpeach · #**131** (**permalink**) 04-07-2008, 04:28 PM

Souls are not eternal , nowhere in the bible does it say that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by funktacular

There is a scene at the end of Schindler's List where Oskar Schindler (Liam Neeson) is given a ring from the 1,200 Jews he bought from extermination. The ring is inscribed in Hebrew with a phrase that translates, "Whoever saves one life, saves the world." As Schindler studies his gift, he starts to mumble, "I could've got more out... If I'd made more money, I threw away so much money, you have no idea. If I'd just..." His bookkeeper and friend interrupts to say, "There will be generations because of what you did," to which Schindler responds, "I didn't do enough... this car... why did I keep the car? Ten people, right there, ten more I could've got. This pin, Two people. This is gold. Two more people... at least one... one more person... I could've gotten one more person I didn't."

For Oskar Schindler, the financial cost of preserving human life was very high. It cost him his entire fortune, and yet at the end of it all, he wasn't lamenting the cost, but rather the fact that he hadn't given up more for the sake of a few extra people. We look at his example and applaud. He understood the unique value of individual human beings. He understood that the value of life far exceeds the value of gold pins and luxury automobiles. He understood that financial sacrifice was the only appropriate response to the "cost of life". Abortion proponents, however, have turned Schindler's equation on its head. They argue that, in many cases, the value of a new baby is less than the value of the money it will take to feed and clothe that baby. This is utilitarianism at its ugly extreme, and the reasoning is no more honest than any of the other arguments people use to justify abortion. Babies aren't any less expensive after they're born, but very few people dare cite "extreme financial burden" as a legitimate reason for terminating their lives after birth (one exception to this rule was Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger who said in Woman and the New Race, 1920, that "The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.").

Essentially, there are two ways to evaluate the "Cost of Life". There is an immediate cost and a long-term cost. Abortion is a means of eliminating the short-term cost. For a few hundred bucks you can free yourself from the financial burden of diapers and baby food, but you also free yourself from a relationship with your child, you free yourself from someday having the support and care of a grown son or daughter. You free yourself from grand-kids and great grand-kids, and you free society from the long-term production and influence of an utterly unique human being. The late Julian Simon, well-known University of Maryland business professor, distinguished senior fellow at the Cato Institute, and author of The Economics of Population Growth, spent a lifetime demonstrating that people are the most valuable natural resource in the economic realm. He commented in the July 7, 1993 edition of Investor's Business Daily ("Is a Population Bomb Ticking?") that, "the most important benefit that population growth confers on an economy is that people increase the stock of useful knowledge. In the long run, the contributions people make to knowledge are great enough to overcome all the costs of population growth." Simon goes on to say, "If we measure the scarcity of people the same way we measure the scarcity of economic goods – by the market price – then people are becoming more scarce, because the price of labor time has been rising almost everywhere in the world." People create, people produce, people drive industry. With fewer people comes fewer innovations and less man-power.

The value of a single human soul is a staggering thing. In the biblical economy, in fact, the value of one human soul exceeds that of the entire material universe combined. Souls are eternal. Gold and diamonds are not. The cost of raising a child is real and significant, but the cost of killing them is far greater.

PaleRider · #**132** (**permalink**) 04-07-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

LOl palerider you really are retarded I think.

Your confusing my opinions of you with facts.

Again you lie. When you are stating an opinion, you state then and there that it is your opinion. You didn't tell lexi that it was your opinion that I made emotional arguments, you stated that I make emotional arguments as if you had evidence to support the claim. That makes the claim a lie.

Then you made the claim that I said that I didn't care how children were fed. That one can't even be construed as an opinion. It is an accusation which you coudln't prove. Another lie.

Now you have claimed that your statements of fact were in fact statements of opinion. Another lie.

Then there is this most blatant lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vapeach

I am not the one who brings up Exodus all the time it was brought up by your lying buddy bluedog....

To which I provided 10 separate instances of you using the verse in Exodus to support your argument. You claimed that you weren't the one, and yet, it seems that it is an intergal part of your argument even though your particular version is from a bastardized translation.

Face it peach, you have been caught lying more than once. Now you lie when you say you didn't lie. Unlike you peach, I don't call people liars unless I am prepared to prove it. Simply calling someone a liar when you can't prove it makes you a liar.

wvpeach · #**133** (**permalink**) 04-07-2008, 04:59 PM

If a argument is emotional or not is a matter of opinion palerider, any logical person would have to concede that fact.

Course we all know your not logical at all palerider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

Again you lie. When you are stating an opinion, you state then and there that it is your opinion. You didn't tell lexi that it was your opinion that I made emotional arguments, you stated that I make emotional arguments as if you had evidence to support the claim. That makes the claim a lie.

Then you made the claim that I said that I didn't care how children were fed. That one can't even be construed as an opinion. It is an accusation which you coudln't prove. Another lie.

Now you have claimed that your statements of fact were in fact statements of opinion. Another lie.

Then there is this most blatant lie.

To which I provided 10 separate instances of you using the verse in Exodus to support your argument. You claimed that you weren't the one, and yet, it seems that it is an intergal part of your argument even though your particular version is from a bastardized translation.

Face it peach, you have been caught lying more than once. Now you lie when you say you didn't lie. Unlike you peach, I don't call people liars unless I am prepared to prove it. Simply calling someone a liar when you can't prove it makes you a liar.

Where is this 10 separate instances of me using exodus as a way of backing my argument palerider you supposedly supplied?

You know what I think palerider? I think you lie so much you don't even know when you lie anymore.

Present this 10 instances you supplied palerider of my words.

I haven't seen you do that ever.

Perhaps your not lying after all palerider, perhaps you are just mentally ill, there is a difference between a liar and the mentally ill. Is that it palerider ? Are you so mentally ill we cannot blame you for the lies you tell?

PaleRider · #**134** (**permalink**) 04-07-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

If a argument is emotional or not is a matter of opinion palerider, any logical person would have to concede that fact.

I challenged you to bring forward even a single example of an appeal to emotion on my part. You didn't because there are none. You lied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

Where is this 10 separate instances of me using exodus as a way of backing my argument palerider you supposedly supplied?

I don't lie peach and you must be really stupid to think that I would accuse you of something that I couldn't prove. Here is a link to the post:

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/363491-post41.html

And here are the 10 separate instances. I don't claim that these are all of the instances you have evoked your bastardized translation of Exodus 21, I just tired of reading your crap by the time I had 10 examples to prove your lie.

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/334793-post22.html

clip:
The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23).

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/334925-post36.html

clip:
The Jewish discussion about abortion begins with a biblical text. Exodus 21:22-23 discusses a situation in which two men are fighting

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/334977-post48.html

clip:
Exodus 21:22-25

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/337353-post1.html

clip:
This passage from Exodus seems to say that causing death to a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing death to a person:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/337369-post6.html

clip:
The most well-known, Exodus 21:22-25, says that if a pregnancy woman has a miscarriage

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/357418-post166.html

clip:
exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/357767-post182.html

clip:
"If man strive and hurt a WOMAN WITH CHILD, so that her fruit depart from her (cause her to abort the child) and yet no mischief follow (no death results); he shall surely be punished, according as how the womans husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow (a resulting death), then thou shall give life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23) Take note, the scriptures did not make specific to whom they were making reference to, thus, we must conclude by other clear scripture it is meant the death of either the child or the mother

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/359118-post611.html

clip:
Intentional abortion is not mentioned directly in the Bible, but a case of accidental abortion is discussed in Exodus 21:22‑23, where Scripture states: “When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life.”

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/358152-post593.html

clip:
"If man strive and hurt a WOMAN WITH CHILD, so that

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/359250-post2.html

clip:
The text from this week’s parasha explains: If a pregnant woman is accidentally injured in a fight between two men and she miscarries as a result, the man who injured her is responsible for monetary compensation as a penalty. It is not a capital offense. The fetus has value, but not status as a full human being. (Exodus 21:22)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

You know what I think palerider? I think you lie so much you don't even know when you lie anymore.

I don't lie peach, and the fact that you can't bring foreward a single example of a lie on my part is evidence enough of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

Present this 10 instances you supplied palerider of my words.

See above

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

I haven't seen you do that ever.

Another lie. In the post after the one where I listed 10 examples of you using that verse, you stated that you weren't "reading my crap" and made numerous posts after that. You saw it and now you have lied about seeing it. More lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

Perhaps your not lying after all palerider, perhaps you are just mentally ill, there is a difference between a liar and the mentally ill. Is that it palerider ? Are you so mentally ill we cannot blame you for the lies you tell?

You are the one denying the lies that have been brought foreward for everyone to see and you call me a liar with not even the smallest bit of evidence to support your claim. You seem to be the one who is a bit off balance peach.

PaleRider · #**135** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 05:56 AM

By the way peach. When you are admitting that you do use that verse as support for your position, you might also explain why you use the verse from a bastardized translation that has an entirely different meaning than the original text.

George O Well · #**136** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Are you arguing that it is not a human being?

Depends on your definition of "human". In MY definition, to be "human" means to be "sensate". If a being cannot touch, hear, feel, smell, or see, or if it cannot process those sensations, how can it be human?

wvpeach · #**137** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

To which I provided 10 separate instances of you using the verse in Exodus to support your argument. You claimed that you weren't the one, and yet, it seems that it is an intergal part of your argument even though your particular version is from a bastardized translation.

.

Where are these ten statements of mine you provided palerider?

I say your a liar as normal.

If you provided ten statements of mine it should be easy for you to pull that back up.

You won't be able to because I never did it and your never ""provided"" any such thing.

I am not so sure your just a liar palerider, I am starting to think your mentally ill and don't know what your saying.

You have never "" provided "" ten statements of mine anywhere.

If you have pull them up again you mentally ill person.

If not we will all just know your a mentally ill liar.

wvpeach · #**138** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

By the way peach. When you are admitting that you do use that verse as support for your position, you might also explain why you use the verse from a bastardized translation that has an entirely different meaning than the original text.

You wouldn't have a clue what a real translation of the bible is palerider.

And I always quote straight from the King James Version of the bible are you saying that is a bastardized version palerider?

All right liar, where are these ten statements of mine you provided?

Pull up your own post and show them to us all.

You want to prove your not a liar don't you?

Or do you just lie so much you forget which lie your telling today?

PaleRider · #**139** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

Where are these ten statements of mine you provided palerider?

How stupid are you peach. Look 5 posts above this one. #134.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

If you provided ten statements of mine it should be easy for you to pull that back up.

Again, if you weren't an idiot, you could scroll back 5 posts and see them. I included links to each of your posts. That would be the blue writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

You won't be able to because I never did it and your never ""provided"" any such thing.

Post 134 above idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

You have never "" provided "" ten statements of mine anywhere.

Once more for the record oh stupid one scroll back 5 posts to # 134 and if you don't have the intellectual wattage to do that, here is a link to it. Click on the blue writing just below this.

Does the fetus have the right to live by constitution?

PaleRider · #**140** (**permalink**) 04-08-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

You wouldn't have a clue what a real translation of the bible is palerider.

And I always quote straight from the King James Version of the bible are you saying that is a bastardized version palerider?

All right liar, where are these ten statements of mine you provided?

Pull up your own post and show them to us all.

You want to prove your not a liar don't you?

Or do you just lie so much you forget which lie your telling today?

I have to go back to work now but after work I will be back to prove you are a liar on this one as well