study the parts of philosophy that deal with language and all its errors.

[quote=Themaniacster;362673][quote=wolf_22;362629]so what every man who masturbates has just potentially killed millions of people? women like me who have had multiple periods are serial killers?

those sperm cells and ova would have turned in to zygotes, fetuses, and eventually children!

Your argument simply doesn't hold water wolf. If personhood is a thing that you develop into, and intelligence and such are the measures by which you determine that someone has become a person, then more intelligence or more feeling would make you more of a person. That simply isn't the case. There isn't a thing in this world that you can do to make yourself more of a person. You can become a better person or a worse person, but not more of a person. Since by becoming more intelligent, or more feeling we don't become more of a person, it is clear that those qualities are not what make us persons.

This has nothing to do with anything. Alone, a sperm cell or an ovum is of no more consequence than your fingernail clippings. They are just cells from your body.

[quote=wolf_22;362629]I tend to think of it as not being more or less human, but of simply qualifing as human. it doesn't matter if your abilties qualify you for mensa or if you are only average. the important thing is that you are alive and huiman[/qipte]

We have been through this. Medicine and science say, without reservation, that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. That is a fact. Neither you, nor anyone else has provided any credible science at all that says that we are anything but living human beings from the time we are concieved.

Alive and human being from conception. That is fact. Now, you have admitted that you can't make a thing into something other than what it is simply by applying ideas or beliefs to it. It is what it is. You describe how "you tend to think" which is nothing more and nothing less than you attempting to change the reality of what unborns are by applying your thoughts and ideas to them. We have both agreed that you can't actually change what they are by thinking about them in a particular way.

Now if you want to "prove" that they aren't alive, or human beings, then it is going to take some actual science to do it. What is alive and what species that living being belongs to is a legitimate purview of science and you can't philosophise away scientific fact.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

So I can apply a philosophical concept to you and make you in reality whatever I want you to be? I can make you less than a human being simply by applying my ideas to you and in reality, you will become something less than a human being or something other than a human being entirely?

Is that really what you are saying?

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

A sperm cell can never turn into anything wolf any more than your fingernail clippings will ever turn into something else. Sperm cells don't even reproduce themselves. They are formed, have a predefined life span and then are sluffed of or reabsorbed into the body.

Sperm cells and ova are nothing more than cells that belong to your body. Any 2nd year lab student can identify them by their DNA as nothing more than cells from your body. They are unique in that they only have a half of a set of chromosomes each, but beyond that, they are just cells in your body. Once they get together though, they are no longer cells from either parent's body and that same 2nd year lab student can do a DNA test and determine positively that they are not part of your body. They belong to a new human being and they are growing and maturing from the very start because the new human being is alive and growing.

Suggesting that masturbation kills milllions of people is nothing more than a complete, and very childish, misunderstanding of the basics of reproduction.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

btu those sperm have the potential to turn into humans. al they have to do is join with a ovum, implant in the uteren wall, and keep growing.
a fetus can grow into a person as well, all they have to do is keep growing and developing.
they are both pre-life

Wolf, you amaze me with your utmost stupidity.

__________________
Gun control is giving criminals guns and taken guns away from law abiding citizens.

and you amzae me with yuor inabilty to see any other views than your own

I'm not having an inability to do that, as I've said, it's not an opinion whether a fetus is alive, I know the fetus might not seem alive to you, that doesn't mean the fetus isn't alive.

__________________
Gun control is giving criminals guns and taken guns away from law abiding citizens.

Clearly, you don't understand the difference between potential and actualization. Sure, sperm cells and eggs represent the potential to become new human beings if they get together. Potential, however is not reality. A cloud coming over represents potential rain but if the rain doesn't fall, then the potential of that cloud was never realized.

Once sperm and egg get together and fertilization is complete, all of the potential of both sperm and egg are realized. A new human being exists, is alive and is groiwng. From that point on, the potential of the sperm and egg is realized. Now you have a potential doctor, or a potential teacher, or a potential carpenter, or a potential crack dealer but not a potential human being.

It is scientific fact that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. Unless you can show some credible science to dispute that fact, you are going to lose this argument since even you have admitted that you can not change reality by applying a philosophical concept to reality.

I do invite you to provide some credible science that talks about "pre life". This is a term that you, or some non scientist has made up wolf. It isn't valid any more than you calling a grape an orange. Either provide some credible science or give up your invalid point. The purpose of philosophy isn't to argue against scientific fact and philosophy can never win a scientific argument when scientific fact is present.

You can argue philosophically whether or not it is OK to kill unborn human beings and you may or may not win the discussion, but you can never successfully use philosophy to argue that unborns aren't living human beings because the hard science overwhelmingly proves you wrong.

I appreciate that you are trying your hand at philosophy here wolf, but God love ya, you just don't have a firm enough grasp of the basics to get through this. You keep getting off on these tangents. When philosophy isn't working out for you, you switch to science, and when the science proves you wrong, you start trying to disregard scientific fact and insert your beliefs as if what you believed could change scientific fact.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Wolf, you are doing exactly the same thing only to a greater degree. I have looked at your views. Hell, I used to be pro choice. I had a discussion, both philosophical and scientific with someone who really knew his stuff and as a result, I spent more time in medical school libraries doing research than I care to admit. The end result is that I couldn't put together a factual argument that could rationally support pro choice so I switched sides.

I have provided you with all sorts of credible science and rational philosophical arguments. So far, you have not provided even a small bit of science to rebutt the scientific side of the argument and your philosophica arguments are wandering all over the place and yet, you refuse to budge even a bit when it is clear that you are losing.

I have seen all the views, but your view requires that unborns not be living human beings. Why would I accept that view when I can provide medical textbooks, medical journals and any number of books on developmental biolgy that prove you wrong and you can provide no science that says you are right. I have looked at your view and provided evidence to prove it wrong and yet, you continue to hold on to it. Philosopically, how do you justify that?

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma