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Old 03-13-2008, 01:24 PM
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Default Catholic Medical Journal Says Humans Clones Will Have souls

I disagree.

But here is what the Catholics have to say about human cloning.

Catholic Medical Association









Cloning: Ten Most-Asked
by Dr. Peter J. Riga

1999

What is cloning?
Cloning is the taking of the egg of a female of the species and removing its nucleus (DNA or genetic material). Then, the dormant DNA nucleus of a cell from another of the species is placed in the first cell and, by electric shock, reactivates the dormant DNA which then begins to multiply like a fertilized cell. No male participation is necessary and the reproduction process is or can be parthenogenic. The result will be an exact genetic and biological replica of the one who gave the DNA. Once thought to be impossible, it has now been done on sheep and monkeys. While the clone is identical to its paradigm, it is not totally so. A clones genome - its complete set of genetic material - would not be identical to its paradigm. Recombinant DNA creates a unique genome for each individual, even in those who have inherited DNA identical to another. Is cloning harmful? We do not know the long-term problems associated with this procedure because no empirical studies have been done. There are simply too few of these clones to produce such a study. What effects any human cloning might have is all speculative at the present time.

Can humans be cloned?
Scientists have already cloned monkeys which are primates and therefore biologically close to humans. There is no reason why humans cannot be cloned using the same procedures as in other mammals.

Will humans be cloned?
The answer to this question, for better or worse, is yes. No amount of legislation is going to outlaw this procedure. Besides, legislation in this area does not have a good track record. In vitro fertilization, surrogate motherhood, sperm and ova banks, etc., at one time or another were forbidden or regulated or considered wrong. The research went on anyway, either in privately funded research facilities or in countries where the process was not regulated. For example, the United States has no statute or regulation forbidding human cloning. Other countries do. Therefore, human cloning is almost inevitable in spite of any law seeking to regulate or forbid it. Cloning will be done here or abroad.

Human cloning is therefore technically possible today. There are arguments for going forward with this technology which are therapeutic in nature. A cloned human embryo, modified genetically or not, can become a therapeutic instrument. It could synthesize different molecules and furnish biological elements of replacement, etc. But to the question of why clone humans, the answer is very complex, more complex than just a desire to care and to cure. In such a technology there is the realization of very lively fantasies of mastery over human life, an identical duplicate of oneself, engendering (one hesitates to call it birth) of a person outside of sexual bi-polarity and the constraints of a double parenthood. We are really talking about another kind of human condition. No birth, no parents, no real incarnation of flesh before, during and after birth. This may have ominous effects on the person cloned.

Can animal cloning be beneficial?
More research needs to be done in this area and both biologists and ethicists agree that such research should go forward. Such cloned genetics in animals is thought to be able to produce better livestock, disease resistance, better quality meat and more plentiful milk, etc., from genetically cloned species from the DNA of prize animals. In addition, better research on animals for human benefit will be advisable because there will be no variety in such animals used for human testing. Cloned animals may also be important sources for drugs and a medium for transplants in humans. For example, pigs can be cloned in such a way as to better transplant their organs for humans or for better production of insulin. The future in this area is full of promise so that research in the animal area should go forward.

Are there any benefits to human cloning?
It is hard to think of any which would not lead us into the dark recesses of eugenics, experimentation, partial birth abortion, dire effects on the cloned or simply vanity. The idea, for example, of replacing a dead child or parent or loved one by cloning a dying or dead person is grotesque. A person can never be replaced because each human person is a unique dignity. To clone for body parts (e.g. through partial birth abortion or after ten weeks gestation) is an abomination and murder, a denial of human rights. It is the use of a human being as a means and not an end. To clone a child for less intrusive, less invasive means may be ethical. For example, a live child or parent is dying of cancer and needs a unique bone marrow transplant. This may be a beneficial case which respects the dignity of the cloned child who will not be harmed by removal of bone marrow. This, of course, is speculative since the consent of the child is not and cannot be abolished. It would have to come from an independent and non-prejudiced source (e.g., a court).

Does a cloned person have a soul?
Of course. Just as children conceived in vitro have a soul. Moreover, cloned humans will be unique because of different influences on the child which comes from other sources in the environment. We are more than our genes. We are also a living, incarnate soul. While the genetic and biological direction of the clone and the paradigm will be identical, the different influences of culture, environment, other people, experiences of life, etc., will be different for each child, including a cloned child. We can already see this in the case of identical twins. While genetically from the same egg, they are essentially different in their personalities, having received different influences from their environments. In addition, the cloned person has an independent will and freedom as a person. A person is more than genetics and history; he or she is above all a spiritual entity with a soul.

Should humans be cloned?
Given that few, if any, benefits come from this biological process on humans, the only justification would be either vanity or curiosity. It will be done because it can be done  a moral vacuity if there ever was one. These vanity reasons are not great enough moral justification for imposing a particular genetic and biological makeup on a child. If the process cannot be justified except for the most superficial reasons, then neither can it be morally justified. Neither would cloning be an improvement of the race which is a moral, not a genetic term. In morals, every person starts from zeroE irrespective of genetics.

What are the drawbacks of human cloning?
There are many  the whole process is a pure process of science and technology. It is not the genesis of a human person within the context of love, but pure technology. Humans are specifically different from animals in that they are brought into the world by an act of love between two people, not of technology or instinct. Cloning reduces the person to a technological production and removes the clone from the love act at origins. The clone is made, not born. There may be deep problems in such a process if allowed to go forward.

Given that what we have in cloning is a species of parthenogenesis, the function of the father as role model, support and diversity becomes even more weakened that it is today. The sexuality of the sexes as diversity becomes irrelevant and we are introduced into the brave new world of technology, technique, and unlove. Cloning is a direct threat to the family. Even a childless couple who would clone one of the two would be the technological result of one or the other, not of their union in love. It would be an affair a un(e).

The temptation to the spare part syndrome will be very strong. We already take organs and brain cells from intentionally aborted fetuses for transplant into older humans (e.g. Parkinsons disease). Cloning will make this process perfect with no possible rejection in the paradigm from whom the DNA originally came. The temptation will be very great along with the further use of partial birth abortion for spare organs. Cloning is the technologizing of the whole human endeavor which turns out not to be human at all.
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:25 PM
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The catholics need to rethink their stance on this.

After all who creates humans? God or man?

This is a slippery slope, that I fear we cannot avoid the devastation of.
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wvpeach View Post
The catholics need to rethink their stance on this.

After all who creates humans? God or man?

This is a slippery slope, that I fear we cannot avoid the devastation of.
************************************************
Well "Peach", nothing surprises me at this point about the poor old catholic church. [For the record I was educated in every grade up through college by catholic educational systems; and I did get a really good education. So I am not anti-catholic.] But a huge part of me is very "anti" the corporate catholic church.

Unfortunately the vast years have of world experience has failed to teach them that science is not their strong point: they get entangeled in a sordid mess every time they come near science. Here again they play with pronouncements far beyond any understanding: I think I know why they do this, and that is because only if their is a "soul" present can they lay claim to juridistction & thus influence.

There is so much more good that they could be about were they were to come off of their "infallability" nonesense, because this is much of what ties their positions to antiquated ideas. As it stands they have no way to correct ancient positions that life & experience & science prove just plain wrong: remember Copernicus & Galileo.

They have made pronouncements on so many various things that they knew little about, and now life has presented them with such things as an overwhelming world birthrate & escessive world populations; medically supported life longevity while in a vegitative state; explosive teen pregnancy; homosexual love & partnership; divorce of couples married too young; unjust wars by nations that support the church; etc.

When you maintain you are "infallabile" and you come out on the wrong side of an issue, then its pretty hard to admit you were wrong and then re-think the issue as more data becomes available.

They could not have picked a more rigid Pope: yes he is bright, but he grew up in a rigid german atmosphere and has served far too long as boss cardinal of the group previously know as the Inquisition. In that position he terrified and destroyed many worthy but out spoken people, and played a major role in the church's burrying its head rather then discussing human-life issues with medical/science/humanistic professionals.

Its sad and not-Christian, but the catholic church does not welcome everyone and they do not learn from their past mistakes. pjwky
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Old 03-13-2008, 04:30 PM
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Interesting post PJ

Who does the Catholic church not welcome?

By the way I agree . if they would just drop the infallibility crap. That one decree. We were wrong about the pope being infallible would go a long way with setting things right with the Catholics and the world.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:18 AM
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Since you can't prove the existence of a soul, it is not the basis for human rights. Why bother cutting and pasting all of this static when it doesn't prove anything?
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wvpeach View Post
Interesting post PJ

Who does the Catholic church not welcome?

By the way I agree . if they would just drop the infallibility crap. That one decree. We were wrong about the pope being infallible would go a long way with setting things right with the Catholics and the world.
**************************************************
Hi Peach, the corporate church does not welcome a host of people. To mention only a few: people raised catholic/or converts that were often married too young and eventually came to divorce; gay or lesbian catholics that live as a couple; ex-clergy that were recruited & manipulated into the clergy at an age far too young, and then left the clergy without the extensive & sometimes impossible permission of the Vatican; bishops & priest that speak out on humanitarian issues because of conscience when told to be silent; bishops & clergy that speak out as a matter of conscience on any matter when the Vatican commands they be silent, and there are other groups.

Its hard to argue against an organization that has survived this long: however, in truth the present church as organized does not go back through the first several hundred years after Christ. They evolved into the present organized corporate church through out the ages where some form of temporal mediating authority was needed to limit the kings & hereditary powers.

Information has never been an ally to the organized church: they held all means of knowledge as tight as possible within their grasp: books, schools & science & literate masses & now the internet presents them with very different problems then those they were used to managing. I doubt we will see them change within our life cycle; but change they must or go the way of the dynosours. Much of what they do & preach now would not be very pleasing to the Jesus we know from the scriptures. ...pjwky
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wvpeach View Post
The catholics need to rethink their stance on this.

After all who creates humans? God or man?

This is a slippery slope, that I fear we cannot avoid the devastation of.
My wife and I were alone in bed when we made our daughters. God provided the means, but we provided the event.

The same holds true with cloning. God provided the means (DNA), we provide the event.

As for whether clones would have souls...why not? The clone itself would be genetically human, and completely innocent of its creation, so a loving God wouldn't deny the clone a chance at Heaven just because it wasn't conceived with a penis and vagina. If God doesn't approve of cloning, the sin falls upon the creators, not the creations. If God does approve of cloning...well, that'll be a helluva marketing claim! Not even Hot Pockets can claim God endorses their product!
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintMalaclypse View Post
My wife and I were alone in bed when we made our daughters. God provided the means, but we provided the event.

The same holds true with cloning. God provided the means (DNA), we provide the event.

As for whether clones would have souls...why not? The clone itself would be genetically human, and completely innocent of its creation, so a loving God wouldn't deny the clone a chance at Heaven just because it wasn't conceived with a penis and vagina. If God doesn't approve of cloning, the sin falls upon the creators, not the creations. If God does approve of cloning...well, that'll be a helluva marketing claim! Not even Hot Pockets can claim God endorses their product!
Ececellent answer and welcome to AWE.
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