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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:51 PM
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Don't they say that satan knows the bible backwards and forewards and can make even the most evil argument seem reasonable and just using the bible?

What exactly does this have to do with this particular conversation pale rider?
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Old 03-11-2008, 04:56 PM
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Well, I can't speak for Lexi , so I will speak for myself.

I deny we are humans at conception for many scientific and biblical reasons.

You are yet to tell us anything that proves otherwise pale rider.

How do you feel about birth control which causes more abortions than do doctors in abortion clinics?

How do you feel about fertility clinics that throw fertilized embryos out in the trash each day?

How do you feel about cloning?

All this and religion goes hand in hand with the science of humanity and our bodies and souls. I have yet to see you say anything specific about any of these topics pale rider. All you have said is how you feel.

Got news for you people feel all sorts of things, doesn't make them right.


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Everything comes with an inherent risk. You have a greater risk of being killed in your shower than you do of dying from celebrex and such drugs. Waking up and getting out of bed comes with the risk of being killed and staying in bed, for that matter also comes with a risk of death. Taking a drug that might cause your death to help a condition that will eventually cripple and kill you is hardly the same as deliberatly setting out to kill another living human being.

And I haven't given any definition of what is right and what is wrong. I have only said what is. Your sense of what is right and what is wrong is why you are unable to accept the facts for what they are. If you accept that we are living human beings from conception, then your own sense of right and wrong tells you that abortion is wrong. You deny the facts so that you don't have to face your own moral dilemma.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:22 PM
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What exactly does this have to do with this particular conversation pale rider?
Did you or did you not provide a paper that suggested a biblical support for pro choice?
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:25 PM
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You'll have to attempt a better explanation of your comments than that pale rider. Your not making good sense, perhaps because your not finishing any complete thought in your posts.

Not ragging on you, just telling the truth and asking that you consider a complete explanation.

That is if you expect to be taken seriously. A sentence here and a sentence there completely unrelated to anything else in every language makes no sense and that is what I have seen you do in this thread pale rider.

Not to mention the fact you have yet to answer any of my questions.
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:27 PM
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The bible tells us when a fetus becomes a living being.

Many people think that a human being is created at the time of conception but this belief is not supported by the bible.

The fact that a living sperm penetrates a living ovum resulting in the formation of a living fetus does not mean that the fetus is a living human being. According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.



Paleone, this is why you always say, "I'm not getting religion into it". There's no way you can believe in God and have the opinion that you do so I'm assuming that you're an atheist.
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:30 PM
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For those who are interested in what the bible has to say about souls, abortions and God, the following except from Jewish law will be educational.

MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: Overview: Abortion

Bioethics
ABORTION


Overview: Abortion


The Jewish position on abortion occupies a middle ground, neither condoning it nor categorically prohibiting it. Indeed, while Judaism disapproves of abortion on demand, in certain cases it not only permits, but requires it.







The Jewish discussion about abortion begins with a biblical text. Exodus 21:22-23 discusses a situation in which two men are fighting. During the fight, one of the men accidentally hits a pregnant woman. The Torah says that if the woman is killed then, “a nefesh shall be given for a nefesh (a life shall be given for a life).” The man who struck her is considered a murderer and is punished accordingly. If, however, the woman miscarries but does not die, the man must pay monetary damages. He is not liable for murder because the fetus is not considered a nefesh, a human being.



While establishing the status of a fetus, this text tells us nothing about the permissibility of abortion. It is another source—the Mishnah (redacted c. 200 CE), in Tractate Ohalot—that provides us with the underlying principle: “If a woman is undergoing a perilous pregnancy, the fetus may be destroyed since her life takes precedence over its life.” When a woman’s life is in danger, abortion is permitted. However, the range of this permissibility is subject to debate and hinges on a single question: Why does the woman’s life take precedence over the fetus?



The medieval commentator Rashi (1040-1105 CE) interprets this mishnah in terms of the verses from Exodus cited above. Accordingly, the woman’s life takes precedence over the fetus because the fetus does not have the status of a nefesh, a human being. Maimonides (1135-1204), on the other hand, believes that aborting the fetus is permissible because the fetus is considered a rodef, one who “pursues” another with the intent to kill. According to Jewish law, it is permissible to kill a rodef in order to preempt his act of murder. Because in this case the fetus threatens the life of the pregnant woman, it is permissible to abort it. These two interpretations yield the same result for this specific case—the fetus is aborted and the woman is saved—but they serve as the basis for two differing approaches to abortion in general.



As we have seen, if a woman’s life is in danger it is permissible—in fact, obligatory—to terminate her pregnancy. But what about cases where the danger is of another sort? For example, a woman can suffer psychological harm by bringing to term a child who is the product of rape or who suffers from a genetic disorder. Is this psychological harm sufficient to warrant an abortion?



Rashi’s belief that the fetus is not considered a human life is the basis for the position that, in certain circumstances, psychological damage is sufficient danger to permit abortion. Eliezer Waldenberg employs this reasoning in allowing abortions for fetuses carrying Tay Sachs, a terminal genetic disease common to Ashkenazic Jews. Those who rely upon Maimonides’ interpretation, however, do not focus on the non-human status of the fetus. They allow abortion only when the fetus threatens the life of the mother. When the fetus is not life threatening—even if it threatens the woman in other ways—abortion is not permitted. This was the position taken by the former chief rabbi of Israel, Issar Unterman.



While many liberal authorities do permit abortion even for unwanted pregnancies when there is the potential of psychological damage to the mother, it should be noted that Judaism’s qualified support for abortion is not rooted in the language of “a woman’s right to choose.” A fetus is considered equivalent to a limb; just as Jewish law would prohibit someone from choosing to cut off their own limb, it would prohibit abortion without good reason. Conversely, most authorities would agree that a woman may not choose not to have an abortion if pregnancy or childbirth puts her life in danger.
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:33 PM
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It is still part of Jewish law that a husband may require his wife to have a abortion if he thinks she has committed adultery. Thankfully not a part of the law that is often followed of enforced today.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PaleRider View Post
If you accept that we are living human beings from conception, then your own sense of right and wrong tells you that abortion is wrong. You deny the facts so that you don't have to face your own moral dilemma.

I have no moral dilemmas to face at this time so there goes that theory of yours out the window.
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:36 PM
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I deny we are humans at conception for many scientific and biblical reasons.
I have been asking for some credible science that states that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being for quite some time now. You claim scientific reasons for denying that unborns are living human beings. Lets see the science.

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You are yet to tell us anything that proves otherwise pale rider.
I have provided quote after quote after quote from medical school textbooks on the subjects of embryology, fetology, human developmental biology, OB/Gyn and respected, peer reviewed medical journals that state explicitly that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. To date, I haven't seen a shred of credible science that states otherwise. If there were even a debate among the scientific community, there would be some credible sceince that the pro choice side could reference.

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How do you feel about birth control which causes more abortions than do doctors in abortion clinics?
Any birth control device or drug that has abortificient effects should be banned when roe is overturned on the basis of the personhood of the unborn as devices and drugs that cause their deaths would be a violation of their 14th amendment rights.

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How do you feel about fertility clinics that throw fertilized embryos out in the trash each day?
I don't think that fertility clinics should be allowed to fertilize more than one egg at a time. If the proceedure becomes too expensive for most couples as a result of the restriction, then adoption is an option.

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How do you feel about cloning?
If you are talking about cloning spare parts that doesn't involve embryos, then I have no objection to the proceedure. If you are talking about cloning human beings I don't have any specific objection to that proceedure either so long as the clone is recognized as a human being and is entitled to all of the rights any other human being would expect. If you are talking about growing and killing embryos for medical purposes, then I object to that practice on the same basis as abortion.

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All this and religion goes hand in hand with the science of humanity and our bodies and souls. I have yet to see you say anything specific about any of these topics pale rider. All you have said is how you feel.
I don't need to bring religion into the discussion to tear your pro choice argument into small pieces. This issue is about human rights, not religion. And I have said nothing about the way I feel.

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Got news for you people feel all sorts of things, doesn't make them right.
Of course, I can prove that I am right. There is not a single aspect of my argument that I can't prove. Which aspect of yours are you able to prove?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:39 PM
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Paleone, this is why you always say, "I'm not getting religion into it". There's no way you can believe in God and have the opinion that you do so I'm assuming that you're an atheist.
You know what they say about assuming. Of course, we already knew that you were an ass.
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