Then show me some that says that we aren't. I have been asking for you to provide some since this discussion first started. You haven't.

And once again, science doesn't make any moral demands upon you. It merely says what is. We are living human beings from the time we are concieved. That is a fact. What you do with that fact is up to you but denial of the fact isn't a rational option.

Then you deny credible science. It isn't that you don't want to be ruled by science, you don't even want to accept it because if you accept it as the fact that it is then you will have a moral delimma of your own making.



Of course you are. I have provided plenty of credible science that says that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. I have asked you to provide some credible science that states that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being and you know and I know that you can't provide it because it doesn't exist and it doesn't exist because it simply isn't true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexi And those people do not live our lives , we do, so we must make the decisions what we do with the science.

The fact of science and what you do with those facts are two entirely different things. The fact is that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. That fact doesn't demand that you do anything with it but accept it as a fact. It doesn't tell you how to live your life. It doesn't tie you to any moral code. It does nothing but state what is. If you believe that women should be allowed to kill thier children without legal consequence for any or no reason, then that is what you believe and I can't form an argument against that. If you deny the science though, and try and make the claim that we are something other than living human beings from conception, then I am going to demand some sort of proof because I can provide science that says that we are living human beings from conception.

Your denial of the facts creates the argument. Not how you choose to live your life.

I don't know what you are talking about here.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

But in the mean time here are a few articles for the religious among us to consider.

beliefnet: The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion

The Biblical Basis for
Being Pro-Choice
The Bible never mentions abortion, but it does offer support for choice.
By Marjorie Brahms Signer
The 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion, created a huge amount of misinformation about the nature of being pro-choice. Starting with President Bush's proclamation of National Sanctity of Human Life Day, the purpose seems to be to portray those who are pro-choice as godless and heartless. But being pro-choice is firmly grounded in the Bible.
Who is pro-choice and religious? Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law. They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.]

Religions have many different--and changing--tenets about abortion. Some oppose abortion in all cases because they believe human life begins when an egg and sperm meet. They hold this belief even though medical science defines pregnancy as beginning with the implantation of the fertilized egg. Others believe abortion must be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Some believe abortion is required in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's life is in danger.

Many religions believe the decision must be the woman's because she is the person most affected.

Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus. Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's will.

The Bible tells us that God acts within human beings to set us free and enable us to assume responsibility for ourselves. If we make wrong choices, God forgives us. Humans, by the grace of God, have developed medicine, surgery, and psychiatry to prolong and enhance life. These same medical approaches can be chosen to prolong or enhance the life of a woman for whom a specific pregnancy would be dangerous.



All Jewish authorities base their understanding of the Jewish view of abortion on two basic Jewish principles--that preserving life is of paramount importance, and that the fetus does not possess the same status as a living woman. Most Jewish thinkers throughout history have held that when a woman's life or health is at stake, abortion is permissible and sometimes even mandatory, regardless of the stage of fetal development.

Together, pro-choice Christians and Jews base their views on these biblical principles:

Stewardship. Genesis tells us we are created in God's image and that with that gift comes the responsibility for ".every living thing that moves upon the earth" (1:27-28). It follows that, as moral agents, women have the God-given obligation to make decisions about the course of action that seems most responsible in cases of unwelcome pregnancy.

Free will. Created in God's image, we are endowed with the ability to make moral choices. This ability is the very basis of an individual's dignity and autonomy.

Personhood. The Bible's portrait of personhood centers on the woman and man who bear the image of God and live in responsible relation to God.

The sanctity of life. All religions revere life. It is because we believe in the sanctity of all human life that we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy on women and families. We pray for a world in which every child is wanted, loved, and cared for. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life that we believe a child has the right to enter the world wanted and loved. Because we believe in the sanctity of human life we are sensitive to the effects of an unwanted pregnancy upon individual women, upon their loved ones and their families, and we recognize that they, not we, must determine what is best for those directly concerned and involved.

Respect. The Bible places full responsibility for procreation in the hands of parents. Requiring a woman to complete a pregnancy against her will devalues motherhood and shows lack of respect for women.

Religious Liberty. Religious Americans honor the dignity and value of all human life but recognize that different religious traditions hold a variety of views regarding when life begins and when ensoulment occurs. In this nation all are free to live according to their consciences and religious beliefs. No one religious philosophy should govern the law for all Americans.

In conclusion, being pro-choice is not being pro-abortion. Bishop Melvin Talbert of the United Methodist Church put it this way in a 1996 sermon: "In reality, there are many of us who believe that choice is the most logical and the most responsible position any religious institution can take on this issue. My sisters and brothers, we are dealing with something that is deeply spiritual and cannot be left to those who would choose to politicize this issue and further victimize those who must ultimately decide for themselves."

__________________
Real Christians Don't Support Preemptive War



Life is not about counting the number of breaths you take , life is about the moments that take your breath away.

The bible doesn't give proof. The bible is about faith. So the answer is no, you can't provide any proof.

My religious beliefs are irrelavent to this discussion. My objection to abortion is that human beings are being denied their most basic human right. This nation was founded on the idea that we come into being with certain inalienable rights and the right to live is among them. It is the responsiblity of government to protect those rights. Our inalienable rights are ours because we are human beings, not because we have reached some arbitrary level of maturity.

My position is based in biology, the constitution, case law, and legal precedent. The case will ultimately be decided in a court of law and religious argument not only does not have a place in a court of law, it will not be heard. If you can't argue your case effectively without calling upon religion, then you don't have a real argument.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

The people that take prescription medicines like Celebrex and a lot of others that come with the warnings they could cause death.

Are they commiting murder too since credible science has proven they cause death and some take them against all the scientific data ? Your definitations of what is right and what is wrong just don't add up Paleone.

Don't they say that satan knows the bible backwards and forewards and can make even the most evil argument seem reasonable and just using the bible?

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

You can't have that both ways Pale, if you believe that fetuses have the right to life even though they are not really a "human being" yet then you have to include the religious part too, won't work any other way. The scientific data and religious beliefs go hand in hand.

I guess that's a checkmate...

Everything comes with an inherent risk. You have a greater risk of being killed in your shower than you do of dying from celebrex and such drugs. Waking up and getting out of bed comes with the risk of being killed and staying in bed, for that matter also comes with a risk of death. Taking a drug that might cause your death to help a condition that will eventually cripple and kill you is hardly the same as deliberatly setting out to kill another living human being.

And I haven't given any definition of what is right and what is wrong. I have only said what is. Your sense of what is right and what is wrong is why you are unable to accept the facts for what they are. If you accept that we are living human beings from conception, then your own sense of right and wrong tells you that abortion is wrong. You deny the facts so that you don't have to face your own moral dilemma.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

As if you were a chess player.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

LOL

Your hedging pale rider. The bible does give proof that man has a soul. Now if you don't believe what the bible says that is another topic all together pale rider. Do you believe the bible or not pale rider? That is a simple enough question and I don't know why it would upset you to answer it.

As far as biology goes. Animals at least mammals and humans reproduce in very similar ways. Biological life is not unique to humans. Animals are biologically alive from the moment of conception just like humans are. It is only the soul, or human intellect thats sets humans apart from animals. Whatever you want to call the soul or human intellect pale rider that sets us apart from animals, its a fact that unborn babies aren't thinking. Not like you and I are thinking.

Brain activity is a measurement of human life. And clearly newly fertilized human eggs don't have a brain to think with for several weeks after fertilization. They don't have a brain to control their own bodies. They live biologically as parasites off the human mothers bodies.

So tell me pale rider are you against birth control pills because they starve newly fertilized eggs to death ?

Are you a vegetarian who believes no life should be taken?

Just when does a human become a human pale rider? Is biological life without a brain human?

Just what are you against pale rider? I am yet to figure it out by your posts.

__________________
Real Christians Don't Support Preemptive War



Life is not about counting the number of breaths you take , life is about the moments that take your breath away.