There are one of two things that has happened with your posts bluedog.

A- you totally lied and twisted the bible and what it says?

OR

B- you looked up some web site that lied and twisted what the bible says and did not do due diligence and read the scriptures yourself and posted the web sites distortion and out right lies about what the bible says?


Which is it BD are these your own lies or lies you found and posted without reading what the actual bible says?

I hope they are not your lies BD because honestly the lies you told about the meanings of scriptures are severe .

I'll tell you what BD. Do as I have done and don't post your own paraphrased version of how you think the scripture should read. Post the actual scriptures you posted as distorted meanings and then give the correct meaning.

Because if you did this on purpose BD , your busted. Anybody that can read can read what you made up about most of the scriptures you posted and see that the actual scriptures say the exact opposite in many cases of what you said. In all of the scriptures you posted BD you were only close on meanings on a handful , over a dozen you gave the meaning as a complete and opposite lie or distortion about the meaning as anybody that can read sees for themselves.

Worse yet BD Christ and Father God know you lied and distorted scripture this way.

So tell me you found this crap you distorted from the bible on some messed up web site.

OR

Post the same scriptures again in their entirety, read them , pray about them and give their true meaning. Because BD the bible has told on the lies you posted. you might lie but scripture does not.

I hope you repent of this lying about the bible BD because it is a very big deal to God and to Christ.

If you don't I will know your working as a anti christ spirit in this world and that everything that comes out of your posts is liable to be a lie.

For your sake BD I hope that is not the case. I will pray for God to convict you of this sin.

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I pasted the entire scriptures BD. The ones you posted and distorted in pieces yourself BD........................Except I posted the entire scripture which anybody can read for themselves and see that your post was a attempt to deceive and change the bible BD. Don't get mad at me because you posted partial scripture or completely counterfiet ones. The bible speaks for itself BD and its obvious what your posted did not mainly come from the bible as whole truth.

Your just upset because I posted the real scriptures, the entire verses. and did not let the lies and distorted scripture meanings you posted stand.

Show me one place BD where I added to scriptures or took away from the scriptures like you did? Show me one place BD where I posted a complete lie about what the scripture said BD like you did here on this thread.

I am getting real worried about you BD I had hoped you found that mess of outright lies and distortions on line and just did not bother to read the bible yourself before you posted that mess of lies .

Now I am starting to think your not on Christs team, which means I am not on your team.

As Christ would say if this was not a huge mistake BD,id you stand by your lies and distortions, then your working for your father the devil and the truth is not in you BD.

I pray that is not true for your sake BD. But you sure did lie about what the bible says in the scriptures you gave BD. That is not excusable.

Anybody with eyes can see you lied BD

Or did you get this crap somewhere else and just not check it yourself? .

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The Scriptures, not opinion, that I posted were not taken out of context and were relative to the fact of the position that "you" espoused about declaring the LIE that God does not consider the unborn resting in the womb of any woman as a CHILD, and considers it perfectly acceptable to abort(KILL) such a life as a Child without due process in consideration of the righteous justice of God. We are instructed to use only the Scriptures for our doctrine, as they provide everything that is needed to make the man of God "complete" as pertaining to life and godliness ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17, 1 Peter 1:3 ), not "personal" opinionated lifestyles as directed by "in vogue" social positions of any society, to include our own. The scriptures do not need to be "interpreted", as they will interpret themselves if given the chance. As demonstrated, by myself in allowing the scriptures to declare God's position on what He in fact considers a gestating baby, and they (the scriptures) very clearly and distinctly declared that in every passage in which an unborn child is mentioned the child is considered nothing less than an actual living child, as the scriptures address with the "exact" same words (which are truth -- John 17:17) the unborn, as any other child outside the womb.

With this fact clearly established by the Scriptures, not my personal opinion, as I presented nothing but the word of God to demonstrate such as the facts, they(the scriptures) interpreted themselves. We then must consider the commandments of God in consideration of the unborn as we would any other child. Thus, God Himself declares that it is a sin, not just a sin but an abominable sin to shed the blood of the innocent, as the scriptures declare such in Proverbs 6:7, as well as being carried over into New Testament doctrine that is governed by the "perfect law of liberty", Matthew 5:20-21, as Christ directs the attention to the fact of Killing another human (murder), as He takes it even a step further and declares that even being angry without a JUST CAUSE places one in danger of the judgment -- Vs. 22. Now we are to believe that it is not "sinful" to end the life of a gestating child, whose only crime in most causes is "SOCIAL INCONVENIENCE"? Especially after God Himself as deemed fit to call that which rests in the womb a CHILD, do you really believe inconvenience is just cause for presenting anger to a child, let alone a death sentence? BD

That is a very interesting statement vapeach. If you believe that there will be a judgement day on which we must account for everything we have ever said or done, I am interested in how you plan to explain why you used God's word to lead people to believe it is OK to do a thing that you are against? If you are against it, clearly there is something in your moral framework that makes you believe it is wrong and yet, you use God's word in an attempt to convince others that it is OK and in fact, the right thing to do.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

And you're also a Fetus Fanatic right?




110 and still trucking...LOL

Try putting someone on permanent ignore and start reading before you log in..

You see, this is the obvious problem with people such as yourself that try to twist the scriptures and make them appear coherent to suit any political position, You always get caught up in your lack of logic when attempting to make the scriptures present a lie, like declaring it is ok to abort "a child", it says so in the scriptures. Which can be proven a lie by the use of YOUR OWN WORDS. I noticed, and I assume everyone else did, that you did not hesitate to use the same words as the scriptures presented. That being, you yourself, just as did the word of God, presented that which was in danger of being aborted was indeed a CHILD, a HUMAN CHILD. Now to prove your "ILLOGICAL" claim that there is nothing in the Holy Book that prohibits abortion, WOULD YOU PLEASE PRODUCE THE SCRIPTURES THAT DECLARES GOD AS EXPRESSING THE FACT THAT KILLING AN INNOCENT "CHILD"......JUST AS YOU YOURSELF ADMITTED WHEN YOU SAID, "When it says "if mischief follows" it is talking about the LIFE of THE WOMAN NOT OF THE "UNBORN CHILD".....is an acceptable thing to do, in His sight. WE WILL PATIENTLY BE AWAITING YOUR "HOLY GHOST" inspired response, as we all are sure that you can produce these scriptures, or at least one where God declares that it is OK to kill (murder, without due process) a child. And you cannot, any longer, declare that which rests in the womb of a woman is not a child, for you just admitted to all of us here that it is considered by the word of God, and YOUR OWN WORDS, to be an UNBORN "CHILD". Good luck with finding those scriptures, or even just one, considering these words of the Christ Himself, "But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, SUFFER THE LITTLE CHILDREN TO COME UNTO ME, AND FORBID THEM NOT: FOR OF SUCH IS "The Kingdom of God". -- Mark 10:14. You see? This surely happens each and every time that "fallible man/woman" tries to put their own words into the "MOUTH OF GOD". I knew, that if given enough rope, the results would be a public lynching presented by your own hands, or in this case, "your own mouth". I will cease my comments, I shall not over post on your threads any longer, FOR THE POINT HAS BEEN PROVEN. Have a good day, and try to use the word of God as to present spiritual salvation, and not "POLITICAL TALKING POINTS". GOD BLESS. I, must be absent for several weeks, duty calls. BD

If one were to read Tactius the Roman Historian who has some of the oldest writings on Judaism, one would discover that one of the distinguishing features he mentions about the religion was that they though abortion immoral. Tactius found that aspect fairly strange, though he did comment on how it allowed the Jews to reproduce in large numbers.

If it is there at the beginning of recorded history, one can surmize that it was pretty much a central tenet of the religion.

Okay more proof is need of your lies I see bluedog.

That is a simple matter. Few people here are interested in what the bible says.

But I am sure if I take the scripture you posted one at a time and place the real scriptures next to them in open forum a few people will chime in to say hey what BD posted is not what the bible says at all.

I will do that when I have time.

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Historian's would be correct to say abortion is discouraged in Jewish law. However your comment is not descriptive of what Jewish law is. They discourage abortion because it is potential human life.

The Jewish faith does not recognize the unborn as human till it breathes. Therefore abortions are done reguarly in Jewish society. They have councils set up that women are supposed to get permission from to make sure the abortion is not simply being done for birth control. All any woman has to tell the council is that the pregnancy will injure her mental welfare and the abortion is granted.

They also have secular services available where no permission is needed.


easiest way to conceptualize a fetus in halacha is to imagine it as a full-fledged human being -- but not quite.2 In most circumstances, the fetus is treated like any other "person." Generally, one may not deliberately harm a fetus. But while it would seem obvious that Judaism holds accountable one who purposefully causes a woman to miscarry, sanctions are even placed upon one who strikes a pregnant woman causing an unintentional miscarriage.3 That is not to say that all rabbinical authorities consider abortion to be murder. The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime4 and by others as merely indicating that one is not executed for performing an abortion, even though it is a type of murder.5 There is even disagreement regarding whether the prohibition of abortion is Biblical or Rabbinic. Nevertheless, it is universally agreed that the fetus will become a full-fledged human being and there must be a very compelling reason to allow for abortion.


The Torah is our old testament scripture, for those unaware of that.

Judaism recognizes psychiatric as well as physical factors in evaluating the potential threat that the fetus poses to the mother. However, the danger posed by the fetus (whether physical or emotional) must be both probable and substantial to justify abortion.9 The degree of mental illness that must be present to justify termination of a pregnancy has been widely debated by rabbinic scholars,10 without a clear consensus of opinion regarding the exact criteria for permitting abortion in such instances.11 Nevertheless, all agree that were a pregnancy to causes a woman to become truly suicidal, there would be grounds for abortion.12 However, several modern rabbinical experts ruled that since pregnancy-induced and post-partum depressions are treatable, abortion is not warranted.13





As a rule, Jewish law does not assign relative values to different lives. Therefore, almost most major poskim (Rabbis qualified to decide matters of Jewish law) forbid abortion in cases of abnormalities or deformities found in a fetus. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, one the greatest poskim of the past century, rules that even amniocentesis is forbidden if it is performed only to evaluate for birth defects for which the parents might request an abortion. Nevertheless, a test may be performed if a permitted action may result, such as performance of amniocentesis or drawing alpha-fetoprotein levels for improved peripartum or postpartum medical management.

While most poskim forbid abortion for "defective" fetuses, Rabbi Eliezar Yehuda Waldenberg is a notable exception. Rabbi Waldenberg allows first trimester abortion of a fetus that would be born with a deformity that would cause it to suffer, and termination of a fetus with a lethal fetal defect such as Tay Sachs up to the seventh month of gestation.14 The rabbinic experts also discuss the permissibility of abortion for mothers with German measles and babies with prenatal confirmed Down syndrome.

There is a difference of opinion regarding abortion for adultery or in other cases of impregnation from a relationship with someone Biblically forbidden. In cases of rape and incest, a key issue would be the emotional toll exacted from the mother in carrying the fetus to term. In cases of rape, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Aurbach allows the woman to use methods which prevent pregnancy after intercourse.15 The same analysis used in other cases of emotional harm might be applied here. Cases of adultery interject additional considerations into the debate, with rulings ranging from prohibition to it being a mitzvah to abort.16 http://www.aish.com/societyWork/scie...Jewish_Law.asp

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More on Jewish abortion law FYI. Your historian did not state the facts fully.

Judaism 101: Kosher Sex
Abortion
Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

I can go to the actual Jewish legal texts if you wish but they are a bit dry for the purposes of this forum. Jewish civil law is all based on the bible, what they call the Torah. In Israel all people live by biblical rules.

The above text puts it in layman terms what Jewish law says which is based on old testament scriptures they call the Torah, we would call a OT bible.

Jewish law says: An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother.
Because it is clear in scriptures that God does not send the soul , what makes us human till we are born and breath. It is just western Christians that seem to not read the bible very well and rather depend on traditions of men that forget this fact. They err.


The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. [/i]

The Torah or our old testament makes it clear as I have shown in past scriptures that the unborn are not considered human , they are potential life till they emerge the greater part of their body from the womb. Because at that point they could breath on their own.

I have also pointed out scriptures in the old testament in numbers where abortionate potions are given to women if their husband is even jealous and suspects them of adultery.

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