This isn't about abortions, but I didn't know where else to put it

naturemomma · #21 (**permalink**) 02-09-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong

Agreed Nature....nice post

Thanks, I must say it's nice to agree with you.... for a change

GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong · #22 (**permalink**) 02-09-2008, 10:06 PM

LOL....true that....

BTW, how is your freind & how are you dealing today????

naturemomma · #23 (**permalink**) 02-09-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong

LOL....true that....

BTW, how is your freind & how are you dealing today????

Shock. Complete shock. She has plans to get married next month. Everyone just can't believe this has even happened. The only blessing (that I can see right now) is that he died instantly, and apparently felt no pain. I am very angry, as is everyone, because the driver had been drinking. He also had his 10 year old son in the car. What a fucking moron. This kid will be scared for life because his dad is a scum. I dunno - I'm a lilltle bitta. I am planning on a trip to see her, and hopefully she won't cancel her wedding plans, her Dad wouldn't want that. But she's devastated. Her mom is remaining calm, that's a little freaky, I think she's in TOTAL melt down. I am afraid for when it hits her. It will be hard.

Anyway - thanks for asking. Sorry to ramble on....

GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong · #24 (**permalink**) 02-09-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturemomma

Shock. Complete shock. She has plans to get married next month. Everyone just can't believe this has even happened. The only blessing (that I can see right now) is that he died instantly, and apparently felt no pain. I am very angry, as is everyone, because the driver had been drinking. He also had his 10 year old son in the car. What a fucking moron. This kid will be scared for life because his dad is a scum. I dunno - I'm a lilltle bitta. I am planning on a trip to see her, and hopefully she won't cancel her wedding plans, her Dad wouldn't want that. But she's devastated. Her mom is remaining calm, that's a little freaky, I think she's in TOTAL melt down. I am afraid for when it hits her. It will be hard.

Anyway - thanks for asking. Sorry to ramble on....

Don’t sweat it….

This is a horrible that has happened & especially under these circumstances. That poor family!

It’s very hard on her, I have lost both of my parents in the last eight years (under different circumstances) & if anyone would have asked me ten years ago if I could imagine life without them, I would have said Hell No! I think it has been the hardest thing ever….

At least she has family & you have each other…it means so much….

Peace to ya girl & safe travels…….

wolf_22 · #25 (**permalink**) 02-10-2008, 01:29 AM

palerider-
I do not believe a fetus is alive or can be considered human in the sense that I am a human and you are a human and every female is a human.
until week 14 they have no frontal lobes. no thinking, no emotions, no receptors to interpret feelings and sensations. they may be shells of people or be pre-life, but they are not alive.
if you truly feel so passionatly about fetuses and their treatment- than make things better for pregnant woman and for those of us who are alive now. work to cure disorders and diseases so there are less abortions and miscarriages.

ensure there is birthcontrol avalible and that sex education involves actual education and not just someone saying 'don't have sex'.

try to make things easier on pregnant females so they don't have to feel that having a pregnancy will be harmful to them.
(for instance-there is a thread on here about maternity leave for pregnant teens. how can we tell these girls not to abort if we don't let their bodies heal after delivery, pressure them to give their offspring up for adoption when they don't want to, and kick them out of their school and send them to run-down 'education centers' for pregnant girls?)

and of course you could-ADOPT!

Nature- I hope you and your friend are doing better. and tell your husband I'm sorry if my topic freaked him out a bit-I know this situation is not one anyone wants to think about.
and I have to agree, its very weird to be agreeing with people I normally disagree with. I don't know what to think about it.

PaleRider · #26 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

palerider-
I do not believe a fetus is alive or can be considered human in the sense that I am a human and you are a human and every female is a human.
until week 14 they have no frontal lobes. no thinking, no emotions, no receptors to interpret feelings and sensations. they may be shells of people or be pre-life, but they are not alive.

What you "believe" is irrelavent when there are undisputed facts present that show your "beliefs" to be wrong. Having a belief in a thing is fine when there are no facts that prove your belief wrong, but when facts are available that prove your belief wrong, then you are just lying to yourself for whatever reason that you choose to go on believing a thing that isn't true. If your guilt is so great that it forces you to "believe" things that aren't true, then you have issues that you really should seek help on.

There is no credible science that suggests that unborns are neither human beings or alive. They are as human as they will ever be. Immature yes, but human beings none the less.

By the way, you are quite wrong about not being able to feel. By the time a child is 8 weeks, if it is touched with a sharp object it withdraws violently. We know this from direct observation. Since they have no "filters" that tone down pain as we do, it is entirely possible that they feel pain more exquisitely than we. Neuroscientists have been saying for decades that when abortions are performed at 8 weeks and beyond, that the child should be given a general anesthetic because it could very well feel the pain of being torn apart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

if you truly feel so passionatly about fetuses and their treatment- than make things better for pregnant woman and for those of us who are alive now. work to cure disorders and diseases so there are less abortions and miscarriages.

That does nothing to help the human beings that are being denied their most basic human right. You are lying to yourself once more if you believe that a considerable number of abortions are due to medical conditions. 97% of all abortions are for reasons that amount to nothing more than convenience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

ensure there is birthcontrol avalible and that sex education involves actual education and not just someone saying 'don't have sex'.

Everyone has access to birth control and sex education and the killing continues and the only way to seriously reduce the number of abortions is to make the practice illegal and punish those who do it anyway. Just like we do for any other sort of killing.

oceanbreeze · #27 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturemomma

No, I think if you look at post #15, it states what I would do, this post was before I really had to think on the issue.

I think we can all say, we are lucky we are not faced with this choice. None of us really know what we would do. We can make assumptions and try to guess based on our life experiences, but no one really knows for sure.

Agreed.

Sympathies to your friend's family, Nature.

wolf_22 · #28 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

What you "believe" is irrelavent when there are undisputed facts present that show your "beliefs" to be wrong. Having a belief in a thing is fine when there are no facts that prove your belief wrong, but when facts are available that prove your belief wrong, then you are just lying to yourself for whatever reason that you choose to go on believing a thing that isn't true. If your guilt is so great that it forces you to "believe" things that aren't true, then you have issues that you really should seek help on.

There is no credible science that suggests that unborns are neither human beings or alive. They are as human as they will ever be. Immature yes, but human beings none the less.

By the way, you are quite wrong about not being able to feel. By the time a child is 8 weeks, if it is touched with a sharp object it withdraws violently. We know this from direct observation. Since they have no "filters" that tone down pain as we do, it is entirely possible that they feel pain more exquisitely than we. Neuroscientists have been saying for decades that when abortions are performed at 8 weeks and beyond, that the child should be given a general anesthetic because it could very well feel the pain of being torn apart.

That does nothing to help the human beings that are being denied their most basic human right. You are lying to yourself once more if you believe that a considerable number of abortions are due to medical conditions. 97% of all abortions are for reasons that amount to nothing more than convenience.

Everyone has access to birth control and sex education and the killing continues and the only way to seriously reduce the number of abortions is to make the practice illegal and punish those who do it anyway. Just like we do for any other sort of killing.

that is false. every medical source I've ever seen says a fetus feels no pain until week 14.
I know a fair deal about neurobiology and until you have functional frontal lobes you can't feel. there may be some reflects- I don't know- at that time but there is no center of the brain to interpet those feelings.

I have no guilt.

actually not everyone can get birthcontrol and most do not have good education. birthcontrol is very expensive and unless you have a PP around you, there is a good chance you won't be able to afford it.
many schools are abstience only and they do not coverthings like birthcontrol and condoms. they also don't address how to lessen the cahnces of STDs if you have same sex relations. and they also do not discuss abortion is an unbiased way.
many kids who have gotten pregnant say things like- "I ate hot chips after sex. doesn't that prevent pregnancy?" or "I thought if the woman was on top we wouldn't get pregnant b/c of gravity"

you are lying to yourself if you think birthcontrol is readily avalible and sex education is easily attainable.

and yes most abortions do not take place due to a medical reason- they take place because people accidently get pregnant and find abortion to be the best option. and sometimes it is.
abortion shouldn't be the best option as often as it is- thats why I say we should work to better the quality of life.

read studies- outlawing abortion can increase the amount of abortion. it has before. and it also increases women dying during abortions- you know those people who are alive, who think, who feel, and who deserve respect and autonomy.

naturemomma · #29 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanbreeze

Agreed.

Sympathies to your friend's family, Nature.

Thanks. You guys have been so sweet. I really appreciate it. It means a lot.

naturemomma · #30 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

that is false. every medical source I've ever seen says a fetus feels no pain until week 14.
I know a fair deal about neurobiology and until you have functional frontal lobes you can't feel. there may be some reflects- I don't know- at that time but there is no center of the brain to interpet those feelings.

I have no guilt.

actually not everyone can get birthcontrol and most do not have good education. birthcontrol is very expensive and unless you have a PP around you, there is a good chance you won't be able to afford it.
many schools are abstience only and they do not coverthings like birthcontrol and condoms. they also don't address how to lessen the cahnces of STDs if you have same sex relations. and they also do not discuss abortion is an unbiased way.
many kids who have gotten pregnant say things like- "I ate hot chips after sex. doesn't that prevent pregnancy?" or "I thought if the woman was on top we wouldn't get pregnant b/c of gravity"

you are lying to yourself if you think birthcontrol is readily avalible and sex education is easily attainable.

and yes most abortions do not take place due to a medical reason- they take place because people accidently get pregnant and find abortion to be the best option. and sometimes it is.
abortion shouldn't be the best option as often as it is- thats why I say we should work to better the quality of life.

read studies- outlawing abortion can increase the amount of abortion. it has before. and it also increases women dying during abortions- you know those people who are alive, who think, who feel, and who deserve respect and autonomy.

I completely agree, the medical research you speak of - the same I have seen.

As far as birth control - it's very expensive - unless you have money to throw around. Programs that were once available have been cut - thanks to Bush and his cronies, and the new america, also known as Iraq.

As far as education, certain counties have started teaching about pregnancy, safe sex and VD, their rates of teen pregnancy have gone down, drastically. But many parents (mostly republicans) don't want their kids learning about this sort thing in school. They believe "it" should be taught at home. When what they really mean is "ignored at home". So you pro-lifers get what you get. No education + no birth control funding = dead fetus.

P.S. This of coarse excludes Go Right as I know she is actively involved in creating awareness.