This isn't about abortions, but I didn't know where else to put it

wolf_22 · #**211** (**permalink**) 03-04-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

I have proven that you have no property rights in your body. That is, you don't own your body. You can not own a thing and be a thing at the same time. Simply claiming that you do when the courts have stated over and over that you don't, doesn't make it so wolf.
just because something doesn't have monetary value doesn't mean it isn't owned.

Arguments don't have genders. You can either defend your positon or you can't. My sex is irrelavent to whether your position is valid or not.
I'm not disagreeing. but you still have no right to an opinion

Once more, logical fallacy. If a woman were going to die if she did not terminate her pregnancy, and I demanded that she try and have the child anyway, then I would be choosing the child over the woman. I have never made such an argument. I do choose the child's life over a woman's convenience.
yea, cause ruining your life and having a child you can't care for is only an inconvenience

I already proved that they weren't parasites. I listed off a half a dozen or so explicit reasons that they aren't. Should I list them again? I will, not that it will make any difference to someone like you whose argument isn't based in any sort of fact at all.

A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)

A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother. This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.
dependent relationship stil sounds very parasitic to me
A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.

A human embryo or fetus comes from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote.
a fetus comes from an outside source and an inside souce. an ovum (inside) and sperm cell(outside). and since half the fetus comes from outside and is not like the host, isn't it them half-parasite?
A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite

A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother.
nausea, physical pain, disfigurement, stretching of the body, interfering with the person life, monetarily draining,... sounds harmful to me
A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).

A human embryo is isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.the umnilical cord is attached to the woman's uterus. that is not indirect

When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue usually responds by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in humans).

The lining tissue of the uterus responds by surrounding the embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the child.
our bodies like the parasite. doesn't mean its still wanted

Do you need further explanation?

I think you helped me prove my point.

thank you

PaleRider · #**212** (**permalink**) 03-06-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

just because something doesn't have monetary value doesn't mean it isn't owned.

I have proved that you have no property rights in your body. That is, you don't own it. You can not be a thing and own that thing at the same time. I provided the court cases to prove the point. The fact that you don't understand them or grasp what they mean, doesn't change the fact. You have proved that you are perfectly willing to create any manner of fantasy to believe instead of the truth, so you go right on believing that the world is flat and that you own your body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I'm not disagreeing. but you still have no right to an opinion

Do you mind if I use that quote for my signature line and give you the credit for saying it? That has to be the singularly most idiotic statement that I have ever seen on a discussion board, and I have been on lots of boards dating back to the early 1980's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

yea, cause ruining your life and having a child you can't care for is only an inconvenience

I asked you before to name a circumstance in which a woman's life was not in danger that abortion would not fit the definition of convenience. You couldn't do it then, can you do it now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

dependent relationship stil sounds very parasitic to me

Sure, on a second or third grade level. Once one is mature enough to further explore what is and isn't a parasitic relationship, then one would realize that all dependence isn't parasitism. Clearly, you are still looking at the word and understanding it on a childlike level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

a fetus comes from an outside source and an inside souce. an ovum (inside) and sperm cell(outside). and since half the fetus comes from outside and is not like the host, isn't it them half-parasite?

Sorry wolf, but the fetus doesn't come from an outside source. Unless it is the product of IVF, it has never been outside. You really don't understand developmental biology do you? Are you an adult? And since mom is a human being, and the child is a human being, they are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

nausea, physical pain, disfigurement, stretching of the body, interfering with the person life, monetarily draining,... sounds harmful to me

Stretch marks are harmful? Tell the judge that you believe you should be allowed to kill your child because you don't want stretch marks.

[quote=wolf_22;327684]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I think you helped me prove my point.

thank you

At this point wolf, we have established that you don't "think" at all. You react emotionally and offer up childlike arguments. God knows, I wish you would think.

wolf_22 · #**213** (**permalink**) 03-06-2008, 07:55 AM

[quote=PaleRider;328638]I have proved that you have no property rights in your body. That is, you don't own it. You can not be a thing and own that thing at the same time. I provided the court cases to prove the point. The fact that you don't understand them or grasp what they mean, doesn't change the fact. You have proved that you are perfectly willing to create any manner of fantasy to believe instead of the truth, so you go right on believing that the world is flat and that you own your body.

you do not understand the law. no where does it say we do not own and can't control our bodies. it says that have no monetary value and thus can't be sold or stolen

Do you mind if I use that quote for my signature line and give you the credit for saying it? That has to be the singularly most idiotic statement that I have ever seen on a discussion board, and I have been on lots of boards dating back to the early 1980's.
no uterus=no opinon. write that

I asked you before to name a circumstance in which a woman's life was not in danger that abortion would not fit the definition of convenience. You couldn't do it then, can you do it now?

yes I can and I did. when the woman's quality of life will be ruined and the child will have a disadvantaged life or worse. try living in poverty, try living with parents who are too immature to raise you, try living with parents who don't want you, ect.
thats not about convinience. and its rude to make such a hard choice into such a simple, insulting issue.

Sure, on a second or third grade level. Once one is mature enough to further explore what is and isn't a parasitic relationship, then one would realize that all dependence isn't parasitism. Clearly, you are still looking at the word and understanding it on a childlike level.
have something you don't want live in your body and feed off of you- then we'll talk

Sorry wolf, but the fetus doesn't come from an outside source. Unless it is the product of IVF, it has never been outside. You really don't understand developmental biology do you? Are you an adult? And since mom is a human being, and the child is a human being, they are the same.
what is its a male? the y chromosome is not part of the female. its foriegn.

Stretch marks are harmful? Tell the judge that you believe you should be allowed to kill your child because you don't want stretch marks.
I love that you ignored the other things I posted. no way to talk your way out of those huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

At this point wolf, we have established that you don't "think" at all. You react emotionally and offer up childlike arguments. God knows, I wish you would think.

I wish you'd be faced with this issue. I wish you had a uterus. I wish you would think about the female and not just the fetus. I wish you would you what a serious issue and choice this is and not minimize it.

I think I'm done with you. as I said, you have no reason to have an opinion and this is something you could never understand. you haven't been in this situation and you never will be in this situation.

PaleRider · #**214** (**permalink**) 03-07-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

you do not understand the law. no where does it say we do not own and can't control our bodies. it says that have no monetary value and thus can't be sold or stolen

Of course I understand the law. I provided links to the cases that state explicitly that we don't own our bodies. Owning and controlling, however, are different things. You can control things that you don't own. If you drive my car you are certainly in control of it even though you can claim no ownership of it.

You said that you own your body. I pointed out that the law says that you don't. Control is a different matter, but the law also restricts that control. Laws against suicide, prostitution, and drug use all exert control over your body and what you can do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

no uterus=no opinon. write that

No. I think I like the first quote better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

[color="Blue"]yes I can and I did. when the woman's quality of life will be ruined

Convenience

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

and the child will have a disadvantaged life or worse. try living in poverty

Living in poverty is not a valid reason to kill

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

try living with parents who are too immature to raise you, try living with parents who don't want you, ect.

Immature parents is not a valid reason to kill a child. Neither is being unwanted a valid reason to be killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

thats not about convinience. and its rude to make such a hard choice into such a simple, insulting issue.

That is exactly about convenience. Sorry if you don't like the word, but it means what it means. Now if you can name a situation in which the woman's life or long term health is not in danger that doesn't amount to convenience, feel free to try again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

have something you don't want live in your body and feed off of you- then we'll talk

No actual argument huh? And the child does not "feed off" of its mother. The woman has entire systems of her body dedicated to protecting and nourishing the child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

what is its a male? the y chromosome is not part of the female. its foriegn.

So are you saying that women should only be allowed to abort male children? I have been arguing all along that the child is not part of its mother's body and now you are agreeing with me? Whooo. We are getting somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I wish you'd be faced with this issue. I wish you had a uterus. I wish you would think about the female and not just the fetus. I wish you would you what a serious issue and choice this is and not minimize it.

There are plenty of women who hold the same view as me wolf. There are plenty of women who will tell you to your face that abortion is murder. This isn't about my sex, it is about denying the most basic human right to a living human being.