A guess common sense is a foreign concept to you

__________________
You can never dent spiderwebs

Wolf,

If I were in this situation I would pray to dear God for help. I must say I don't know what I would do. I don't think I would sacrifice one child for another, I think as a mother - I never could. I have two girls and I don't think I could ever choose one over the other. Sophie may have, but I couldn't.

I must say, the human spirit never fails to amaze me. The only thing to do is say a prayer and count your blessings, because we never know where life might take us.

Ya know, I just have to share that while in the middle of this post, my best friend just called and informed me her father (who has also been like a father to me), just died. Killed instantly in a car accident. The truth is, shit happens and often it's devastating. Thus is life.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's terrible Nature.... Your poor freind

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTQfERb9HVk For my sis.....

sorry for your loss.

i think the question comes down to seeing one child die or both die. and either way the situation is horrible.
I still can't watch that movie (Sohpie's Choice). the whole thing seems like it will be one big cry fest for me.

Thanks Wolf, and thanks Go Right. I know we've had our differences of opinion the last few days, but it means a lot. Really. Very kind of you both.

I asked my husband about this thread - what would we do? His reply was "Holy shit". Can't put it better than that. I know in the end I would most likely make a choice and then hate myself for it. Guilt would eat me alive. I would always wonder if it was right the right one or not.
Or perhaps I'd make my husband choose and then just hate him instead - Jus' kiddin'.

Sometimes life just sucks. Other times it's amazing. I believe that everything happens for a reason, whatever it is. And please don't anyone challenge me on this statement as I haven't yet worked out all the kinks. :}

And yes Wolf, if you watch Sophie's Choice you will need lots of kleenex and medication. I wouldn't be surprided if this movie has the same effect as country music (a higher rate of suicide attempts/success).

__________________
A house divided against itself, cannot stand.
-Abraham Lincoln

So does killing one's child for reasons that amount to no more than convenience.

How much more harm could you possibly do to another human being than attack him or her with surgical instruments and tear them limb from limb. You speak of the unborn as if they are less human than you and that simply isn't true.

And do you believe that the unborn concent to being torn limb from limb or burned and drowned in salt water?

This is, without a doubt, one of the stupidest, most ignorant statements that I have ever heard an adult (you are an adult aren't you) make on this topic. Do you have any knowledge at all of developmental biology or embryology? There is no doubt that the unborn are alive or that they are as human as you. Here, take a look at some actual science and learn something before you speak such idiocy again.

Nealis v. Baird, 996 P.2d 438, 453 (Okla. 1999) “Contemporary scientific precepts accept as a given that a human life begins at conception.” (citing KEITH L. MOORE & T.V.N. PERSAUD, THE DEVELOPING HUMAN 14 (5th ed. 1993); SUSAN TUCKER BLACKBURN & DONNA LEE LOPER, MATERNAL, FETAL AND NEONATAL PHYSIOLOGY: A CLINICAL PERSPECTIVE 49 (1992); MICHAEL R. HARRISON ET AL., THE UNBORN PATIENT: PRENATAL DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT 14 (1984); DALE RUSSELL DUNNIHOO, M.D., PH.D., FUNDAMENTALS OF GYNECOLOGY AND OBSTETRICS 286–99 (1990)

"an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology” T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed. 1990.

"The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."
M. Allen et. al., "The Limits of Viability." New England Journal of Medicine. 11/25/93: Vol. 329, No. 22, p. 1597.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.

"Not only is it a life, but, by its intrinsic biological nature, it is a human life from the moment of conception, for “it can be nothing else.”
E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE,]16–17

" A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.(Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

The fact is that by the time most abortions are performed (about 92%) the child already has a discernable heart beat, a face, fingerprints, and footprints. If you feel the need to convince yourself that abortion isn't killing a living child to asuage some guilt that you carry around, then keep it to yourself as it is a blatant lie that you tell yourself for your own purposes. But don't bother to try and convince me to join you in your delusion.

The references I provided above are medical textbooks used to teach the subject of developmental biology and embryology to medical students and are used in multiple languages at medical schools around the world. There is not one bit of credible science ANYWHERE that would suggest that unborns are not alive or not human beings.

Your right to take a medication does not override another human being's right to live. If a doctor determines that your health is at risk if you discontinue the medication or continue with the pregnancy, then you have a legitimate reason to abort a pregnancy. Those instances amount to between 2 and 3 percent of all abortions.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Ahhh. A name caller. One who, in reality, has nothing intelligent to say on the subject, but feels the need to say "something". If this is the best you have carson, you have brought a knife to an intellecutal gunfight and I will tear you a new one every time you speak to me. If you don't mind being publicly humiliated continue on at your present pace.

That comment was in response to wvpeach's comment suggesting that laws making abortion illegal are an attempt to legislate morality. Which by the way is a false premise and also has nothing to do with abortion. Any law that forbids a specific behavior because that behavior is deemed wrong is an attempt to legislate morality.

Clearly, you are ignorant on the subject of biology. Unborns are living human beings. They are exactly as human as you. If you doubt this, feel free to provide some credible science that states that the offspring of two human beings is EVER anything but a human being. Since abortion is killing a living human being, clearly there is a victim. The issue here, is whether the victim deserves to have his right to live protected in the same manner as yours is protected.

The genius speaks. So far, you have failed to make even one valid point and you call me retarded? Are you drooling as you write?

Again, are you drooling as you write? If calling names is all you have, then you have nothing. Why continue to debase yourself by being humiliated in public?

Is this really the best you have? I am embarrassed for you. Maybe you didn't notice that recently the supreme court upheld laws making very late term abortion illegal. A proceedure that previous courts continued to allow. Maybe you haven't noticed that the Supreme Court has a more conservative face these days. Maybe you didn't know that the court has become more concerned with what the constitution actually says than in making up non existent rights in order to push their personal agendas. Maybe you didn't know that the case which made very late term abortions illegal was just one in a series of cases designed specifically to chip the legs from under roe and result in overturning it.

Maybe you were unaware that a growing body of legal precedent has been established for the personhood of the unborn. Maybe you are aware of very little and just jibber like a monkey in the belief that because you think a thing that it must be true.

And with regard to your idiotic statement that abortion can't be stopped. Murder can't be stopped either, or theft, or arson, or rape, or any other crime simply by making a law. Do you believe that we should erase all laws since the law never stops the behavior. Making law that prevents abortion isn't about stopping abortion, it is about punishing those who continue to kill their children

Once more the genius speaks. At this point, you have completely failed to make even one valid point. You have shown that you are completely out of your depth here, however. You have shown that you have little, if any knowledge of developmental biology and no real knowledge of the law. At this pont, it would seem that if "common sense" is a foriegn concept to either of us, it is you. Now, perhaps you can demonstrate that you have some common sense and attempt to form a coherent argument before you step in again.

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

I agree that it is a terrible situation but it wouldn't be as difficult as you believe. The mother isn't really having to choose one over the other as if both were equal in this matter. One simply can not live without the other and the other is not strong enough to support them both. Would you really let a child of yours die simply because it was not strong enough to support its sibling when if given a chance on its own, it had every chance of living a normal life?

__________________
"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

No, I think if you look at post #15, it states what I would do, this post was before I really had to think on the issue.

I think we can all say, we are lucky we are not faced with this choice. None of us really know what we would do. We can make assumptions and try to guess based on our life experiences, but no one really knows for sure.

__________________
A house divided against itself, cannot stand.
-Abraham Lincoln

Agreed Nature....nice post

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTQfERb9HVk For my sis.....