So were you, so here goes... I get the feeling that you are not as fanatical as palerider on this issue after reading a few of your other comments so what the heck, lets talk.
I think you mentioned in one of your comments that you have a daughter. I wonder what you'd do if when your daughter is 15 or 16 she'd come to you and tell you she just had an abortion. Would you disown her and call her a murderer? I think not but let's hear your comments on it.

We have no famine or war in the US and the worst health problem among the poor in the US is being overweight.

There is no overpopulation. The earth is mostly empty. You could move every human being on earth into the state of texas and allow 1500 square feet per person. That means a family of 4 gets 6,000 square feet. Then you have the rest of the earth left over for pure production, or whatever. The whole overpopulation thing is as big a myth as the back alley butcher.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Sorry naturemomma, You have no credibility. It is clear that you are perfectly willing to disregard credible science if it contradicts your beliefs. If you want to make the claim that a child is "a cell" until the beginning of the third trimester, you are going to have to bring some proof. Clearly you are lying when you make such a suggestion, or woefully ignorant. And if you are going to claim that they are not human beings or alive, you are also going to need to bring some proof. We both know that you can't do it so why do you say it in the first place.

Rights afforded to human beings. I have provided plenty of evidence that unborns are both living, and human beings from the time of conception. So far, you have just talked and not provided a shred of evidence to support a thing you have said and we both know why. If such evidence existed, you would be hammering me with it on every post. No such evidence exists for the same reson that there is no evidence of the tooth fairy.

You know, there should be a law that keeps people from voting unless they can demonstrate that they at least know something about the way our government works and have have a working knowledge of the constitution. You clearly don't have a clue as to what the 14th amendment says, or what it means. Allow me to educate you. (tongue in cheek because we both know that you won't be educated as opposed to can't be educated).

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

You may or may not have noticed that the amendment is written in two sentences. There is a reason for that.

At the time the amendment was added, states were in charge of citizenship, not the federal government and as such, people were first and foremost, a citizen of their particular state and second a citizen of the US. There were several states that were denying their citizens ther basic human rights on this basis. (slavery) The first sentence (in dark blue) establishes that we are first and foremost citizens of the US and secondarily citizens of our state and since we are primarily citizens of the US, our rights are protected by the constitution.

Clearly the first sentence (written in dark blue) states that only persons born or naturalized are citizens but one doesn't have to be a citizen in order to enjoy the protections of the 14th amendment as I will explain.

The second sentence is written in three clauses. There is a reason for this.The first clause (written in lite blue) is to enhance and punctuate the first sentence. It states clearly that no state law can override the rights protected by the constitution.

Did you notice that the clauses are separated with semicolons ( instead of commas (,)? Do you recognize the signifigance of semicolons vs commas. Maybe I better explain that to you as well since it is clear that you haven't seriously considered the language or punctuation used in the Constitution. One must understand the punctuation used in order to grasp what the writers are saying. A semicolon used to indicate a major division in a sentence where a more distinct separation is felt between clauses or items on a list than is indicated by a comma, as between the two clauses of a compound sentence.

The second clause (written in red) states that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. This clause states that no person shal be deprived of life, liberty, property without due process, not "no citizen". The first clause points out and states that citizens have certain privledges and immunities attatched to their citizenship where as the second states that NO PERSON shall be deprived of life liberty or property.

This theory was first tested in the case of Yick Wo v Hopkins in 1876. The court clearly stated that "The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens."

There are numerous cases after this one that affirmed this fact. If you need to see them, I can look some of them up for you.

Finally, the third clause (written in dark red). "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Tell me that you aren't aware of the EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE. This is it. It is why you can't kill, rape, beat, or steal from non citizens. Stated simply, one doesn't have to be a citizen of the US for one's right to live to be protected in the US or be born in the US in order to be considered a person under the constitution.

If you are going to be involved in a discussion, and particularly one that involves the constitution, you really should know what it means.

And we have been murdering each other and stealing from each other for longer than that. What is your point?

Slavery was once an issue that was left up to each state as well. What is your point? And do you believe that you could murder your neighbor in your bedroom and rightly expect to be left alone? Your reference to the bedroom is a handwringing appeal to emotion that means nothing.

Look it up! Look it up! (spoken in the tone of Gomer Pyle saying "citizens arrest, citizens arrest to Barney Fife). Cain kille Able. Look it up. We have been killing for a very long time, What is your point? And for you to tell me to look something up so that I might know the truth is absolutely laughable since you refuse to accept all manner of credible science.

With regard to killing because one can't afford to feed one's family, that is not an issue in this country. The poor here have more problems associated with being overweight than any other group in the world. Getting enough calories to sustain oneself is not a problem in this country.

Not the freedom to kill one's children because they are less than convenient.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Killing another person because you lacked the foresight to consider the possible consequences of your actions qualifies as responsiblity in your way of thinking?

Your description of them suggests otherwise. Suggesting that because sex is a part of life that women have no power to simply say no is suggesting that they are just stupid. And killing another human being is not being responsible. Accepting that your actions have resulted in another human being who, like you, has one and only one life and giving that person the opportunity to live that life is being responsible. Killing it for your own convenience is not. You have a lot of growing up to do if this is your idea of being responsible.

Ignorant, uneducated people don't see an embryo as a child. Anyone who is educated to the level of the 4th or 5th grade should reaonably be expected to know that we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. Anyone who doesn't know that is either ignorant, or self delusional. Which camp do you fall in?

Of course losing everything you have is an inconvenience. It is a major league inconvenience. But it is not a valid reason to kill another human being.

Of course you did. You suggested that getting pregnant was a mistake. Having sex is a sure fire way to get pregnant. If you aren't prepared to deal with all of the consequences of having sex, then you shouldn't do it? Do you go around stepping off of tall buildings? My bet is that you don't and you don't because you aren't really prepared to deal with the consequences of stepping off of a tall building. Women like you have sex, get pregnant, and then expect someone else to bear the responsibility of your actions by forfieting their one and only life.

Euthanasia and suicide are not killing another human being with intent. There is a difference between killing yourself and killing someone else.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Your afraid to even discuss my ideas, I have neither won nor lost since you refuse to even play

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You can never dent spiderwebs

Are you going to try and argue that no one ever gets arrested from their homes? Are you going to tell me that you believe that you can perpetrate any crime you want and get away with it so long as you are in your home?

This is just one more example of you not thinking your position through before you voice it. The fact is that people get caught comitting crimes in their homes all the time so your position is not valid.

And do you think women are going to go to their homes to get their illegal abortions? Why don't you try thinking once in a while. It is just too too easy to tear your arguments down at present.

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"It's not alive, It's not alive, It's not alive. Because I said it isnt', there's your proof jerk." ...lexi

"As far as your logical fallicy shit - shove it. I am a woman."...naturemomma

Of course they will have illegal abortions in their homes or where ever they can get them if it is outlawed, it's pretty easy to tear your arguments down too. Maybe you should take your own advice and start thinking once in a while.

People don't stop shooting others and killing them just because it's against the law so what makes you think a law is going to stop abortion? Get real palerider, you need to educate yourself on human nature.

I wish you enjoyment in your 1500 sq. ft.
If it's a myth, how come states are battling over available water. How come we rarely can eat fish caught in local streams due to septic run-off and chemical dumping. How come, with our 'limited' population, our states are still battling each other over air particulant pollution.

By the way, you are confusing posts by Naturemomma and myself.

Let me give you a little insight. To fully understand you kinda have to understand me a little so let me elaborate. This might be a bit long winded but it might help to understand fully. I grew up watching shows like gunsmoke , bonanza and adam-12 , my dad and my uncles were greatly respected not only by people they new but people that new of them. I saw my dad on ocasions when I was there get things on credit with a hand shake. These were my heros and though I did some wild things as a kid and even as an adult the one thing that has kept me from crossing the line is for one not wanting to disapoint or shame my dad. At an early age I new what kind of a man I wanted to be. I played every sport in school because I was scrapy and athletic and loved it . I lettered 9 times but never wore my lettermans jacket not once. By my senior year as a TA at the pool I was teaching and certifying kids with there ALS (advanced life saving) I got my WSI (water safety instrutor) summer after my junior year. I went into the Marines to try out for recon(0321) got my WSQ(WATER SAFETY QUALIFIED) OUT OF OVER 400 RECRUITS only two of us made it that high. I made recon and got my WSSI(water safety survival instructor cert.)(8563) to shorten it up military courses and private scuba I have every water cert a human being can get. I have taken Martial arts since I was seven and I have been an instructor since 1998. On top of the many other things I have seen and done just because me an a group of freinds would head out every weekend and on thing in mind we are going to try what ever comes our way. Rock climbing, surfing ya hard in cowboy boots but I tryed it that way. You name it I have probably tried it I was and am an adrenaline junkie. But what does all of this have to do with my daughter, I'll tell you. Long ago I noticed that kids have no one to realy and I mean realy look up to, No more heros. So a lot of what I did was two fold I loved it and I wanted to be the kind of man my kids could realy look up to. Ya I may have went way over board but I lived life to the fullest and I had a huge sense of adventure and no fear. Now I am not as much of a risk taker now but I still do a lot of it and will share these experiences with my daughter. She is already (in a very small way) learning martial arts. When she is about 3 I will start scuba, I had my nephew down at the age of 5. So we will see but she is great in the water already. The whoe point is I'm very close to her now and it will only get stronger and I believe she will look up to me and her mom so she would never get an abortion behind my back. I personaly and her mom do not beilieve in it. But she will know by then that if such a tragic accident happened in her life she could come to me and we will talk about it. If after we talk and she for herself thinks that having one is what she realy wants and is best for her then guess what I have no choice but to support her decision. And when I say talk I don't mean the bs murder blood and guts talk that serves no purpose other than to demean and scare. One other thing that would happen though because she is still not an adult I would have the boys parents in on it and the boy because what ever decision she makes even if it goes against what I have taught her that boy is going to be there to see what being irresponsable can do to ones life. That or I will go to my initial respones and beat his ass few days in jail don't bother me in the least not in that situation. I tell you this also by the time she is 9 or 10 my job will be easier because she will be able to take boys out she already shows a natural ability to fight. And my wife can't even take it from her when they play and wrestle. All I have to do right now is teacher her how to control it and use it in a proper way and only for proper reasons. Cool thing is she is very femanin at the same time so my hopes are great when I sit back and watch her she should grow up to be a very strong well rounded young lady. And as such the chance of what you say happening will probabley be very slim.

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

Sounds like a great daughter, and a great relationship, Shadow.