Roe is unconstitutional

PaleRider · #**131** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

a fetus is pre-life. so yes if you don't abort one day (in a few months actually) you will have a baby.

Are you really this stupid, or is this just a thing that you find that you must keep telling yourself over and over and over to keep the guilt of murdering your own child from tearing your sanity completely away from you?

Lets review this one more time.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new human being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, PATHOLOGY OF THE FETUS AND THE INFANT, 3d ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology” T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed. 1990.

These are not passages from far right wing pro life sites wolf, these are from text books used at medical schools all around the world. This is credible science and it is being taught every single day.

"The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception." M. Allen et. al., "The Limits of Viability." New England Journal of Medicine. 11/25/93: Vol. 329, No. 22, p. 1597.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.

Are you familiar with the New England Journal of Medicine wolf? It isn't some pro life magazine published with the purpose of ending aborition in mind. It is one of the most respected medical journals in the world and has been since 1814. This is peer reviewed science wolf. There is no longer any debate among scientists over whether or not we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. The only debate that exists now is whether it is OK to kill a living human being before it is born.

Not only is it a life, but, by its intrinsic biological nature, it is a human life from the moment of conception, for “it can be nothing else.” E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE,]16–17

" A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.(Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

More medical textbooks wolf. Actual science. Now I am sorry if you feel the need to lie to yourself about the nature of unborns. I am sorry if your own guilt is such that you can't face the reality of what you have done, but every time I see you tell the lie that unborns aren't alive, I am going to post a selection of medical texts, and medical journal articles that say that you are a liar. If you are unable to discuss this topic in honest terms, then perhaps it would be best if you avoided it all together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

but that doesn't mean a fetus is a baby. neither is a sperm cell or an ovum.

Fetus is just a word that we use to describe a human being at a particular stage of its life. Using the word fetus doesn't change the fact that you are talking about a living human being at a certain stage of his or her life. You use the word fetus like a racist uses the word ni$ger. And of course a sperm and ovum are not human beings. Any second year lab student could test an egg from your body and say without a doubt that it was a cell from your body. The same is true of sperm cells. They are just cells from a man's body. Alone, they are of no more consequence than fingernail clippings.

Once they get together, however, they cease to exist as sperm and ovum and in their place is a new LIVING human being that any 2nd year lab student could identify as a separate individual that has its own body. A human being that has exactly one life to live just like you and as much right to live that life as any other human being of the face of the earth.

Carson · #**132** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptif219

Try this no abortion no more mental health problems and no more murdered babies.

One of the dumbest things I've ever heard anybody say. First off u can't stop abortion, and do you really think abortion causes all mental health problems or even most? What an idiot

ptif219 · #**133** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carson

One of the dumbest things I've ever heard anybody say. First off u can't stop abortion, and do you really think abortion causes all mental health problems or even most? What an idiot

I guess you didn't go to my link.

It causes emotional problems in women who have abortions years after the abortion.

Your spin is typical liberal garbage when you don't want to address the truth or you don't have an honest answer to show your view is correct

Upton · #**134** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptif219

I guess you didn't go to my link.

It causes emotional problems in women who have abortions years after the abortion.

Your spin is typical liberal garbage when you don't want to address the truth or you don't have an honest answer to show your view is correct

Here's something to add to the debate. Legalized abortion reduces crime, makes sense to me.

From Wikipedia
Proponents of the theory generally argue that "unwanted children" are more likely to become criminals and that an inverse correlation is observed between the availability of abortion and subsequent crime. In particular, it is argued that the legalization of abortion in the United States, largely due to the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, has reduced crime in recent years.

ptif219 · #**135** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upton

Here's something to add to the debate. Legalized abortion reduces crime, makes sense to me.

From Wikipedia
Proponents of the theory generally argue that "unwanted children" are more likely to become criminals and that an inverse correlation is observed between the availability of abortion and subsequent crime. In particular, it is argued that the legalization of abortion in the United States, largely due to the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, has reduced crime in recent years.

I guess it has nothing to do with economics or education ETC.

Just abortion thats to stupid to be funny.

So does that mean single parents or adopted kids.

Instead of abortion how about adoption and now that will cause criminals?

I would say welfare produces crime and abortion will not stop that.

GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong · #**136** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleRider

Are you really this stupid, or is this just a thing that you find that you must keep telling yourself over and over and over to keep the guilt of murdering your own child from tearing your sanity completely away from you?

Lets review this one more time.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new human being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, PATHOLOGY OF THE FETUS AND THE INFANT, 3d ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology” T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed. 1990.

These are not passages from far right wing pro life sites wolf, these are from text books used at medical schools all around the world. This is credible science and it is being taught every single day.

"The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception." M. Allen et. al., "The Limits of Viability." New England Journal of Medicine. 11/25/93: Vol. 329, No. 22, p. 1597.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.

Are you familiar with the New England Journal of Medicine wolf? It isn't some pro life magazine published with the purpose of ending aborition in mind. It is one of the most respected medical journals in the world and has been since 1814. This is peer reviewed science wolf. There is no longer any debate among scientists over whether or not we are living human beings from the time we are concieved. The only debate that exists now is whether it is OK to kill a living human being before it is born.

Not only is it a life, but, by its intrinsic biological nature, it is a human life from the moment of conception, for “it can be nothing else.” E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE,]16–17

" A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.(Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

More medical textbooks wolf. Actual science. Now I am sorry if you feel the need to lie to yourself about the nature of unborns. I am sorry if your own guilt is such that you can't face the reality of what you have done, but every time I see you tell the lie that unborns aren't alive, I am going to post a selection of medical texts, and medical journal articles that say that you are a liar. If you are unable to discuss this topic in honest terms, then perhaps it would be best if you avoided it all together.

Fetus is just a word that we use to describe a human being at a particular stage of its life. Using the word fetus doesn't change the fact that you are talking about a living human being at a certain stage of his or her life. You use the word fetus like a racist uses the word ni$ger. And of course a sperm and ovum are not human beings. Any second year lab student could test an egg from your body and say without a doubt that it was a cell from your body. The same is true of sperm cells. They are just cells from a man's body. Alone, they are of no more consequence than fingernail clippings.

Once they get together, however, they cease to exist as sperm and ovum and in their place is a new LIVING human being that any 2nd year lab student could identify as a separate individual that has its own body. A human being that has exactly one life to live just like you and as much right to live that life as any other human being of the face of the earth.

Pale, good post.

But their right to choice will always come before an unborn child. NO amount of proof, statistics, or real life horror stories will change their minds or the laws. And, they know this, thus the argument repeats it's self. They will not stand on or for morals, or principals, only self preservation.....

GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong · #**137** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upton

Here's something to add to the debate. Legalized abortion reduces crime, makes sense to me.

From Wikipedia
Proponents of the theory generally argue that "unwanted children" are more likely to become criminals and that an inverse correlation is observed between the availability of abortion and subsequent crime. In particular, it is argued that the legalization of abortion in the United States, largely due to the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, has reduced crime in recent years.

Wikipedia?????

Upton · #**138** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong

Wikipedia?????

OK, here's a quote from Steve Levitt who along with John Donohue authored the paper, "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime"

"Our preliminary research suggests that the effect of abortion legalization is large. According to our estimates, as much as one-half of the remarkable decline in crime in the 1990s may be attributable to the legalization of abortion."

Full paper right here: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...alized2001.pdf

PaleRider · #**139** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRightAndYouCan'tGoWrong

Pale, good post.

But their right to choice will always come before an unborn child. NO amount of proof, statistics, or real life horror stories will change their minds or the laws. And, they know this, thus the argument repeats it's self. They will not stand on or for morals, or principals, only self preservation.....

I am afraid that you are wrong there. A series of things have happened, and are in the process of happening that will bring roe down. Most pro choicers aren't familiar with Roe v Wade in any real way beyond a passage or two that they get from their pro choice buds who also aren't familiar with Roe.

In his majority decision, Justice Blackmun laid a land mine that he may or may not have known would eventually cause the Roe decision to be reversed. He wrote:

"The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, [p157] for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument."

I am not sure if you are aware, but in legal terms, the word person and human being are interchangable. Refer to legal dictionaries if you have doubts. So in essence, Roe was decided on the basis that unborns are not human beings and therefore not persons and he states explicitly that if the suggestion of personhood of the unborn is established, that Roe would collapse.

Well, it is no longer possible to make a credible argument that unborns are something other than human beings but aside from that; there are people in prison today, who were charged, tried, and convicted of killing unborns while in the process of committing some other federal crime. In fact, the text of Laci & Connor's Law, otherwise known as the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, signed into law in 2004 states that anyone who knowingly, or unknowingly kills or injures an unborn is guilty of a crime equal to the crime comitted against its mother.

In fact, the law specifically calls unborns children.

clip:

(d) As used in this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.

I am not sure how familiar you are with our legal system, but you can not be charged, tried, or convicted of either manslaughter or murder unless you have killed a person. I don't know exactly how this law got by the pro choice lobby, but it has, in effect, and in reality established the personhood of the unborn and the fact that people are in jail right now having been convicted of manslaughter and murder for killing unborns has established legal precedent for the personhood of the unborn.

Recently, the Suprememe Court upheld a ban on very late term abortions. Very late term abortions have been legal since a year after Roe was heard. In effect, some abortions have been banned. In addition, there are multiple cases working thier way through the lower courts that have been chosen specifically to further strengthen the case for personhood of the unborn and knock the legs out from under Roe v Wade.

You may also have noticed that the face of the Supreme Court is decidedly more conservative than it has been in a very long time. Establishing the personhood of the unborn has taken a very long time to engineer, but it has been done and there is a growing body of legal precedent to solidify the concept. That landmine laid by Justice Blackmun way back in the Roe decision has been ticking for over 3 decades now and is very close to going off.

PaleRider · #**140** (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upton

OK, here's a quote from Steve Levitt who along with John Donohue authored the paper, "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime"

"Our preliminary research suggests that the effect of abortion legalization is large. According to our estimates, as much as one-half of the remarkable decline in crime in the 1990s may be attributable to the legalization of abortion."

Full paper right here: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...alized2001.pdf

Note he says "may be" attributable to the legalization of abortion. Of course, if you follow that logic and accept that by killing children who MIGHT grow up to be criminals you can reduce the crime rate, then you must accept the indisputable logic that if you go about killing everyone who actually is a criminal then you could reduce the crime rate much more drastically. Are you really interested in reducing crime, or are you just using crime as an excuse to continue with legalized abortion? If you are really interested in reducing crime, then you must favor simply killing all known criminals. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite who just lost any credibility that he might have had.