A real look at Roe v. Wade

Cookie Parker · #21 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 04:23 AM

Leaving out emotions and shaming the woman, we can see this is a procedure, under Roe v wade which is serious and can result in death to the woman without proper medical treatment..with the death of women in labor rising in the nation with medical treatment, how can anyone be so cold as to turn these woman back to the days of butchering themselves as they make this desperate decision in their lives? How can any nation be so cold?

Cookie Parker · #22 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyfulwoman

I forgot, one more point, Cookie.

You called someone on another thread a hypocrit because the were pro life, but you said they did not pay attention to the other crimes against children of the world ie trafficking, Darfur and war, etc. I stated that those crimes are disgusting and we should do everything in our power to protect children and give them the care they deserve. That being said, to follow your logic would mean you would have to be for life. Obviously, you are against trafficing, war etc...so not to be a hypocrit you would have to be for life. Because, if you are not for life you can not be against the other atrocites, as well. According to your line of reasoning...

If you are against A and not B...you are a hypocrit,
therefore, if you are against B and not A you are a hypocrit.

Please specifically address this...

I'll attempt to..you haven't quite specified what you are asking but given your side on the choice issue, I'd say you're saying if I'm for a woman's choice, I'm against the pregnancy. See, the pregnancy is not my business. I am not the one facing the issue. The woman is. I am for her have control and decisions over her life. The right to have a decision over her life....I have no part of that decision...I will not make any attempt to financially nor emotionally nor spiritually intervene in that life save as I run across people in my life..

As to war, I did not vote Republican. I am a liberal as I feel that we need to help the poor and we need to make sure our population is healthy...

More U.S. women dying in childbirth - Pregnancy - MSNBC.com

Shouldn't healthcare be a right? Well, we are losing more women in childbirth than we have in a long time. Where is your outrage for women?

Quote:

ATLANTA - U.S. women are dying from childbirth at the highest rate in decades, new government figures show. Though the risk of death is very small, experts believe increasing maternal obesity and a jump in Caesarean sections are partly to blame.

Some numbers crunchers note that a change in how such deaths are reported also may be a factor.

“Those of us who look at this a lot say it’s probably a little bit of both,” said Dr. Jeffrey King, an obstetrician who led a recent New York state review of maternal deaths.

Story continues below ↓
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The U.S. maternal mortality rate rose to 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004, according to statistics released this week by the National Center for Health Statistics.

The rate was 12 per 100,000 live births in 2003 — the first time the maternal death rate rose above 10 since 1977.

Still rare
To be sure, death from childbirth remains fairly rare in the United States. The death of infants is much more common — the nation’s infant mortality rate was 679 per 100,000 live births in 2004.

Maternal deaths were a much more common tragedy long ago. Nearly one in every 100 live births resulted in a mother’s death as recently as 90 years ago. msnbc.com special report

But the fact that maternal deaths are rising at all these days is shocking, said Tim Davis, a Virginia man whose wife Elizabeth died after childbirth in 2000.

“The hardest thing to understand is how in this day and age, in a modern hospital with doctors and nurses, that somebody can just die like that,” he said.

Some health statisticians note the total number of maternal deaths — still fewer than 600 each year — is small. It’s so small that 50 to 100 extra deaths could raise the rate, said Donna Hoyert, a health scientist with the National Center for Health Statistics. The rate is the number of deaths per 100,000 live births.

In 2003, there was a change in death certificate questions in the nation’s most populous state, California, as well as Montana and Idaho. That may have resulted in more deaths being linked to childbirth — enough push up the 2003 rate, Hoyert said.

Some researchers point to the rising C-section rate, now 29 percent of all births — far higher than what public health experts say is appropriate. Like other surgeries, Caesareans come with risks related to anesthesia, infections and blood clots.

'Inherent risk'
“There’s an inherent risk to C-sections,” said Dr. Elliott Main, who co-chairs a panel reviewing obstetrics care in California. “As you do thousands and thousands of them, there’s going to be a price.”

Excessive bleeding is one of the leading causes of pregnancy-related death, and women with several previous C-sections are at especially high risk, according to a review of maternal deaths in New York. Blood vessel blockages and infections are among the other leading causes.

Interactive

Pregnancy: How much do you know?

Experts also say obesity may be a factor. Heavier women are more prone to diabetes and other complications, and they may have excess tissue and larger babies that make a vaginal delivery more problematic. That can lead to more C-sections. “It becomes this sort of snowball effect,” said King, who is now medical director of maternal-fetal medicine at Riverside Methodist Hospital in Columbus, Ohio.

The age of mothers could be a factor, too. More women are giving birth in their late 30s and 40s, when complications risks are greater.

Other characteristics of the maternal mortality rate include:

Race: Studies have found that the maternal death rate in black women is at least three times greater than is it is for whites. Black women are more susceptible to complications like high blood pressure and are more likely to get inadequate prenatal care.
Quality of care: Three different studies indicate at least 40 percent of maternal deaths could have been prevented.

Cookie Parker · #23 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:42 AM

I am pro-life...I support the woman's right to choose...and to have her medical records kept private....not given out to employers and insurance companies...

Cookie Parker · #24 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:43 AM

You? You support war? No health insurance for over 50 million Americans? Poverty? You believe the wealthy have "earned" their money? You think illegals should starve to death? How about you? What's your definition of life? And if God is factoring into your stand on choice, why would you support organ transplants or surgery of any kind? Wouldn't it be God's will to determine your life?

Cookie Parker · #25 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36shadow

If you are so much on a womans right to choose then why is it she does not choose to be responsable and keep her legs closed. If one is molested or raped these are special circumstances when abortion can be looked at or the date rape pill. But other than that women have the choice just because they were not responsable enough to exercise that and instead chose to serve there need for instant gradification is not a good enoug reason to negate theirs or the mans responsability to see through that wich they brought about. If I charge up my credit card and then go hey can I just ask the bank to make all the debt go away. Hell know so why would one think that we should do it with a life. You can use symantics all you like it does not change the fact that once an egg has been fertalized life has begun. Life is full of choices you make to many poor ones and you will end in jail or on the streets. I have the choice to commit crime or not to if I do there are possable consaquences I am going to have to pay. Your not asking for women to have a choice they don't get pregnant just standing there. You are asking for women to have a free pass for making poor decisions. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Your version of women as evil is something you need to deal with. I won't stand in judgment of another's life....but let me ask you this, why are you choosing to come here and not volunteering to help children who are poor in your area? That's a choice you make to turn your back on life once it's here. Why aren't you actively seeking to use your time to help children?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Cookie Parker · #26 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmalade6

Excellent post Cookie!

We used to have discussions around the dinner table - when does the Soul enter the infant/fetus and then become a person. We concluded it was when the babe could breath and eat (suck) on it's own - was in fact viable. This makes sense, if you believe that Souls do exist, since viability allows the soul to grow, etc. If the babe/fetus is not sound, the question always was, does the soul die with the body, or must it look for another body to enter.

I've always wondered if religious folks aren't against abortion because they are forever looking for the new Christ, and think he may be aborted before they have a chance to claim him.

I can see that...they create their god as they go; changing him depending upon the political party in power. With democrats, he's a loving god of compassion. With republicans, he's a vengeful war mongering hating god of anything not white male and protestant..

satv365 · #27 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 08:20 AM

This argument is asinine.

There is no Constitutional Protection of Abortion.

The hijacked Courts are simply legislating there personal political opinions into law. Something they should not do.

If you want a Constitutional Protection of Abortion, you need an amendment. Not the decision of unelected judges who wield unchecked authority over what the Constitution says. Even if the Constitution does not say it....

nathanbforrest45 · #28 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

I am pro-life...I support the woman's right to choose...and to have her medical records kept private....not given out to employers and insurance companies...

You are about as pro life as Hitler was pro Jew. The issue of medical records being private has nothing to do with the issue of abortion. Please explain how one is determined from the other.

If a "zygote" or a "fetus" is not alive until it takes its first breath do you think end term abortions are acceptable? If not, why not. (By end term abortions I mean right up to the time of a natural childbirth, right up until the instant a child emerges from his/her mother's womb)

You mentioned education in an earlier post. Interestingly the main reason for our decline in educational standards is the current liberal position of not allowing judgement to be passed on anyone. Its the current philosophy that 2 plus 2 could equal 5 and be a correct answer as long as the student used logic to arrive at that answer. It is the result of the mindset that minorities are not to be critized for not learning, after all its all whiteys fault. Its a result of the liberal position that pop culture is more important than learning about a bunch of dead white guys. No, you want to attack the current educational system, and I will be the first to admit it sucks, then you must look to the philosphies of the left, certainly not to the very fiew instances of Intelligent Design being taught in schools.

When the argument regarding legalizing abortion on a national scale first surfaced in the 1960's one argument was that it would lead to euthanasa of the elderly and the infirm and the incompetent. The conventional wisdom was that this was a stupid argument. However, it has come to pass that these very groups have been targeted for "assisted suicide" by the same philosophies as those pushing for murdering the unborn.

If the criteria is being able to breath on one's own why not immedidately terminate every life that requires a respirator to stay alive, my mother in law would have been terminated over a year before she actually died of natural causes. What about the severely retarded, what good are they to society, lets just get rid of them since they can't feed themselves or take care of themselves in any meaningful way.

Aborting a "fetus" is certainly an intriguing idea and can be argued on the basis of a "woman's right to chose" but its intellectual heir is euthanasa and "post partum" abortions as well.

36shadow · #29 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

Your version of women as evil is something you need to deal with. I won't stand in judgment of another's life....but let me ask you this, why are you choosing to come here and not volunteering to help children who are poor in your area? That's a choice you make to turn your back on life once it's here. Why aren't you actively seeking to use your time to help children?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Evil???????? Is that all those like you do is put words in peoples mouth and talk out your ass because the truth is a bitch. I said they need to be responsable for their actions. As far as helping the kids ha I have taught intercity youth for the last ohhhhhhh 8,9 FUCKING YEARS FOR NO CHARGE, GET IT MY OWN FREE TIME. Now what do you do but talk out your ass just because you think a woman should be able to go around fuck her brains out then get pregnant then have a way out by having a doctor do the dirty work for her. Like I said it is a choice, accept in the cases of molestation and rape or if the it endangers a womans life.

Cookie Parker · #30 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satv365

This argument is asinine.

There is no Constitutional Protection of Abortion.

The hijacked Courts are simply legislating there personal political opinions into law. Something they should not do.

If you want a Constitutional Protection of Abortion, you need an amendment. Not the decision of unelected judges who wield unchecked authority over what the Constitution says. Even if the Constitution does not say it....

Oh, it's real allright...you may not like it...you may not agree with it...but it's real...did you bother to read why it exists?