A real look at Roe v. Wade

Cookie Parker · #11 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

Seems to me you are much too sensitive....I have answered it...at what stage is the heart beating..also, at what stage is the fetus capable of sustaining life on its own..if it is life you hold sacred..then it must be a life to be called one...what is the age of gestation where there is no need to hook up tubes and put in IVs and pump oxygen? You know, sustaining life...

And if what you say is indeed true, that you welcome the life of the woman, then why are you trying to make her decisions for her that affect ONLY her life..and NOT yours..you get to do what you want...?

Hello? Where'd you go joyful woman? Well, maybe you have family to attend to at night...I'll check back later and tomorrow...I'd like to discuss this with you.

Dom1 · #12 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyfulwoman

You know what, onewhiteduck, you are right. She never addressed my specific question on self sustaining personhood. Totally ignored it, or missed it?? I am noticing that on these forums, people go off on tangents, and do not address specific points in a logical way. It kinda makes you just not even want to join a discussion, ya know. When I joined, I was really looking forward to some healthy debating, and interaction. ...but instead, I am cussed at and called names...I don't care, but I have other things I'd rather be doing...what is the Beatitude...Blessed are they who are persecuted.......

Cookie, maybe you just missed my posts. One final time, I will check back later to see if you have the courage to engage in a healthy discussion about an issue that effects the lives of women in such a dramatic way.

See I am for women's right to live...that means the born and unborn ones, too!!

Thats what Kookie does. When she faces someone who disagrees with her and then poses an argument she can't handle, and there are a lot of them, she does run away. And no, if she is not directing the discussion the way she wants she does not have the "courage" to stick it out.

Joyfulwoman · #13 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:12 PM

Hi...sorry for jumpin in again so late...busy.

The heart actually starts beating in the first month at about 20-21 days. Also, again..the question comes up about self sustaining. A one month old baby is not capable of sustaining himself, a baby born prematurely is not either....there are also mentally retarded or handicapped people that are not capable of self sustaining. Also, lots of people in the hospital that are hooked up with tubes and etc. after surgery or illness that are not capable of self sustaining. Is it acceptable to kill them??

Also, abortion does affect me....not even because of the fact that we could be killing people that could do wonderful things in this world, but I could argue it from a socio economic side too.

But most of all, I have seen first hand how it has damaged women. And you know what that most of all affects me. They are my sisters.

How could we think so little of ourselves to kill our own offspring, our own flesh and blood, cookie.

Cookie, how does that build me up as a woman...that a man can have the most special and intimate part of me...then pay me to kill my baby and get me out of his life?? How does that empower me??

And, I am glad that we have made contact and I look forward to more discourse with you

Politicon · #14 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

Since Roe v. Wade: American Public Opinion and Law on Abortion

. . .

Anyone else think that a court issuing a ruling saying how many weeks abortions are allowed up to and in what manor is overstepping their bounds? I mean they went beyond the original question before the court, they then said abortions could be legal, and then set up how and when. It sounds more like a legislature to me.

Joyfulwoman · #15 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:23 PM

I forgot, one more point, Cookie.

You called someone on another thread a hypocrit because the were pro life, but you said they did not pay attention to the other crimes against children of the world ie trafficking, Darfur and war, etc. I stated that those crimes are disgusting and we should do everything in our power to protect children and give them the care they deserve. That being said, to follow your logic would mean you would have to be for life. Obviously, you are against trafficing, war etc...so not to be a hypocrit you would have to be for life. Because, if you are not for life you can not be against the other atrocites, as well. According to your line of reasoning...

If you are against A and not B...you are a hypocrit,
therefore, if you are against B and not A you are a hypocrit.

Please specifically address this...

36shadow · #16 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:40 PM

The court should have left it up to the individual states to make it legal or not in their state.

36shadow · #17 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

Hello? Where'd you go joyful woman? Well, maybe you have family to attend to at night...I'll check back later and tomorrow...I'd like to discuss this with you.

If you are so much on a womans right to choose then why is it she does not choose to be responsable and keep her legs closed. If one is molested or raped these are special circumstances when abortion can be looked at or the date rape pill. But other than that women have the choice just because they were not responsable enough to exercise that and instead chose to serve there need for instant gradification is not a good enoug reason to negate theirs or the mans responsability to see through that wich they brought about. If I charge up my credit card and then go hey can I just ask the bank to make all the debt go away. Hell know so why would one think that we should do it with a life. You can use symantics all you like it does not change the fact that once an egg has been fertalized life has begun. Life is full of choices you make to many poor ones and you will end in jail or on the streets. I have the choice to commit crime or not to if I do there are possable consaquences I am going to have to pay. Your not asking for women to have a choice they don't get pregnant just standing there. You are asking for women to have a free pass for making poor decisions. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

marmalade6 · #18 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Parker

Seems to me you are much too sensitive....I have answered it...at what stage is the heart beating..also, at what stage is the fetus capable of sustaining life on its own..if it is life you hold sacred..then it must be a life to be called one...what is the age of gestation where there is no need to hook up tubes and put in IVs and pump oxygen? You know, sustaining life...

And if what you say is indeed true, that you welcome the life of the woman, then why are you trying to make her decisions for her that affect ONLY her life..and NOT yours..you get to do what you want...?

Excellent post Cookie!

We used to have discussions around the dinner table - when does the Soul enter the infant/fetus and then become a person. We concluded it was when the babe could breath and eat (suck) on it's own - was in fact viable. This makes sense, if you believe that Souls do exist, since viability allows the soul to grow, etc. If the babe/fetus is not sound, the question always was, does the soul die with the body, or must it look for another body to enter.

I've always wondered if religious folks aren't against abortion because they are forever looking for the new Christ, and think he may be aborted before they have a chance to claim him.

Cookie Parker · #19 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyfulwoman

Hi...sorry for jumpin in again so late...busy.

The heart actually starts beating in the first month at about 20-21 days. Also, again..the question comes up about self sustaining. A one month old baby is not capable of sustaining himself, a baby born prematurely is not either....there are also mentally retarded or handicapped people that are not capable of self sustaining. Also, lots of people in the hospital that are hooked up with tubes and etc. after surgery or illness that are not capable of self sustaining. Is it acceptable to kill them??

Also, abortion does affect me....not even because of the fact that we could be killing people that could do wonderful things in this world, but I could argue it from a socio economic side too.

But most of all, I have seen first hand how it has damaged women. And you know what that most of all affects me. They are my sisters.

How could we think so little of ourselves to kill our own offspring, our own flesh and blood, cookie.

Cookie, how does that build me up as a woman...that a man can have the most special and intimate part of me...then pay me to kill my baby and get me out of his life?? How does that empower me??

And, I am glad that we have made contact and I look forward to more discourse with you

Nah, even a person who is retarded can breathe on their own...

Here is some more development issues for you to look at...and I'm talking check out when the development becomes capable of self sustaining..

Prenatal Development

You're the one who defines life and rights for a zygote...we can discuss what are your issues for life when it needs support as an adult on another thread...but as to sustaining life, the woman's right to choose under roe-v. wade includes through the 3rd month..after that, it is a decision for her and her doctor...how do your wishes enter into her life?

Now, as far as empowerment goes, isn't it a woman's right to choose her life as well? If the man walks away and there the woman is raising a child by a man who isn't around, isn't that him and you and the government having the ability to make choices in her life? If she wants the baby, fine. If she can handle the baby fine. But shouldn't we empower HER with the right to make that decision and not let the actions of passion from a man determine her future for the rest of her life? And what of her medical records? Under what the radical religious right want, those medical records are no longer secret for woman. Any employer or lender has a right to look at all her medical records for any trace of whatever they want to look for. How is that empowering women to make their own decisions.

I think you may have seen SOME women, but to loosely imply you know ALL woman is a false statement. In addition, your approach to women who have had abortions is the slant you are looking for in the results on your discussions with them.

You tell me....as to requiring birth because we may have an einstein, in a nation that now abhors education, that is falling further and further behind other nations in our rankings, how can you justify that statement? You are putting out a false claim and wanting it believed. That's a nice emotional tug at the heart strings, but our nation does not believe in educating people...look at ID....it's not education, but religion.

It's never an easy matter when a woman decides to make a choice to abort. It's never easy when aborting is spontaneous...but as the adult in the situation the mother is the only one entitled to make that decision....no one else will be there for that child, we can see that plainly in this nation where single moms are those most likely to remain under the poverty level.

No, you have a lot of nice little emotional tugs...but provide no evidence of your statements..

Quote:

The Embryo

The embryonic stage begins on the 15th day after conception and continues until about the 8th week, or until the embryo is 1.2 inches in length. During this period the cells of the embryo are not only multiplying, but they are taking on specific functions. This process is called tissue differentiation. It is during this critical period of differentiation (most of the first trimester or three-month period) that the growing fetus is most susceptible to damage from external sources (teratogens) including viral infections such as rubella, x-rays and other radiation, and poor nutrition.

A child who has one developmental problem may have other problems that arose at the same time: Kidney problems and hearing problems, for example, are often found together because both kidneys and the inner ears develop at the same time.

In Week 3 we see the formation of the heart, the beginning development of the brain and spinal cord, and the beginning of the gastrointestinal tract.

Teratogens introduced during this period may cause severe problems such as the absence of one or more limbs or a heart that is outside of the chest cavity at birth.

Weeks 4 and 5 --1/4 inch long: Here we see the beginnings of the vertebra, the lower jaw, the larynx (voice box), and the rudiments of the ear and eye. The heart, which is still outside body, now beats at a regular rhythm. Although arm and leg "buds" are visible with hand and foot "pads," the embryo still has a tail and cannot be distinguished from pig, rabbit, elephant, or chick embryo.

Teratogens may cause very serious problems involving the esophagus, vertebrae, eyes. The baby could be born with severe facial clefts or missing hands or feet.

Week 6 -- 1/2 inch, 1/1000 of an ounce: In week 6, we see the formation of the nose, jaw, palate, lung buds. The fingers and toes form, but may still be webbed. The tail is receding, and the heart is almost fully developed.

Teratogens at this point may leave the baby with profound heart problems or a cleft lip.

Week 7 -- 7/8 inch, 1/30 ounce (less than an aspirin): This week, the eyes move forward on the face, and the eyelids and tongue begin to form. All essential organs have begun to form.

Teratogens may cause heart and lung problems, a cleft palate, and ambiguous genitalia (not quite male or female).

Week 8 --1 inch, 1/15 ounce: The embryo now resembles a human being. The facial features continue to develop and the external ear appears. Also, we see the beginnings of external genitalia. By now, the circulation through the umbilical cord is well developed. The long bones begin to form and the muscles are able to contract.

Teratogens may still cause heart problems and stunting of the fingers and toes.

The Fetus

At this point the embryo is developed enough to call a fetus. All organs and structures found in a full-term newborn are present.

Weeks 9 to 12 -- 3 inches, 1 ounce: The head comprises nearly half of the fetus’ size and the face is well formed. The eyelids close now and will not reopen until about the 28th week. The tooth buds for the baby teeth appear. The genitalia are now clearly male or female.

Cookie Parker · #20 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 04:22 AM

Here are more medical issues on a woman's right to choose

Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy) - Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy) Description - Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy) Symptoms - Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy) Prevention - Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy) Treatment

Quote:

Doctors can use medications, surgery or a combination of both to end a pregnancy. The method depends on how far along in the pregnancy you are, your medical history and your preference. Abortions during early pregnancy — before 8 to 9 weeks — can be done safely with medications. Abortions between 9 and 14 weeks usually are done surgically, although medications may be used to help soften and open the cervix. After 14 weeks, abortions can be done using labor inducing medications that cause uterine contractions or by using these medicines in combination with surgery.

Medical abortion

Abortions completed with medication, called medical abortions, are done within 49 days from the start of the pregnancy. Pregnancy usually starts two weeks after the first day of a menstrual period, so this corresponds to nine weeks from the last menstrual period. Medications used to induce abortion include:

In rare instances when a pregnancy continues after the use of these medications, there is a risk that the baby will be born deformed. The risk is greater with the use of misoprostol. If the pregnancy tissue does not completely leave the body within two weeks of a medical abortion, or if a woman bleeds heavily, then a surgical procedure may be needed to complete the abortion. Approximately 2% to 3% of women who have a medical abortion will need to have a surgical procedure, usually suction dilation and curettage (D & C), also called vacuum aspiration.

A woman should not have a medical abortion if she:

* Is more than 49 days pregnant
* Has bleeding problems or is taking blood thinning medication
* Has chronic adrenal failure or is taking certain steroid medications
* Cannot attend the medical visits necessary to ensure the abortion is completed
* Does not have access to emergency care
* Has uncontrolled seizure disorder (for misoprostol)
* Has acute inflammatory bowel disease (for misoprostol)

Surgical abortion

* Menstrual aspiration -- This procedure, also called menstrual extraction or manual vacuum aspiration, is done within one to three weeks after a missed menstrual period. This method can also be used to remove the remaining tissue of an incomplete miscarriage (also called a spontaneous abortion). A doctor inserts a small, flexible tube into the uterus through the cervix and uses a handheld syringe to suction out the pregnancy material from inside the womb. Local anesthesia is usually applied to the cervix to decrease the pain of dilating the cervix. Local anesthesia numbs only the area injected and you remain conscious. Medication given intravenously (into a vein) can lessen anxiety and the body's general response to pain. Menstrual aspiration lasts about 15 minutes or less.
* Suction or aspiration abortion -- Sometimes called a suction D & C (for dilation and curettage), this procedure can be done up to 13 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period. Suction D & C is the procedure most commonly used to end a pregnancy. The cervix is dilated (widened) and a rigid hollow tube is inserted into the uterus. An electric pump sucks out the contents of the uterus. The process takes about 15 minutes. Local anesthesia is usually applied to the cervix to minimize the pain of dilating the cervix. Medication given intravenously (into a vein) may help to decrease anxiety and relieve pain.
* Dilation and curettage (D & C) -- In a dilation and curettage, the cervix is dilated and instruments with sharp edges, known as curettes, are used to remove the pregnancy tissue. Suction is often used to make sure all the contents of the uterus are removed. The earlier in pregnancy this procedure is done, the less the cervix has to be dilated, which makes the procedure easier and safer.
* Dilation and evacuation (D & E) -- This is the most common procedure for ending a pregnancy between 14 and 21 weeks. It is similar to a suction D & C but with larger instruments. The cervix has to be dilated or stretched open to a size larger than required for a D & C. Suction is used along with forceps or other special instruments to ensure all the pregnancy tissue is removed. The procedure takes more time than other abortion procedures.
* Abdominal hysterotomy -- This is a major operation to remove the fetus from the uterus through an incision in the abdomen. This is rare but may be necessary if a D & E cannot be done. Anesthesia will make you unconscious for this surgery.

Induction of labor

After 14 weeks of pregnancy, abortion can be done by giving medication that causes the woman to go into labor and deliver the fetus and the placenta. The procedure usually requires hospitalization for more than a day because it involves a labor and delivery. Sometimes dilation and evacuation is necessary to completely remove the placenta. Labor can be induced in one of three ways:

* Invasive -- Injecting labor inducing medications by passing a needle through the abdomen and into the uterus, usually within the amniotic sac
* Noninvasive -- Giving labor inducing medications by mouth, intravenously (into a vein), through an injection into a muscle, or inserted in the vagina
* A combination of invasive and noninvasive approaches -- Usually necessary when abortion is done late in the second trimester, before 24 weeks