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wolf_22 · #32 (**permalink**) 05-17-2008, 09:16 AM

[quote=PaleRider;421245]But you are wrong wolf and there is a vertiable mountain of evidence that proves you wrong and nothing at all except your own unsubstantiated opinion by way of proving you right. Simply saying that they are not alive and not human beings is not a rational basis for holding the belief that you are right. It is irrational, bordering on psychological.
yes, anyone who disagrees with you is insane

The real world proves you wrong in every instance wolf. Bleeding heart faith is not a suitable substitute for looking at what actually happens. People of the criminal persuasion don't view people like you as lifesavers who genuinely want to help them. They view you as patsys who are easy marks. They work up a couple of crocodile tears and tell you that they are sorry and bada bing bada boom, they are out on the street again victimizing. You, and those like you are the ones responsible for the crime rates wolf. You believe that you can rehabilitate a stone cold sociopath so you let them back out to prey on society again and again.
no darling, I said almost everyone is rehabilitatable. I look at this from criminology and psychology approah. treat people like humans and there is a good chance they will act accordingly. sociopaths are not rehabilitatable. nor are people who have been overly desencitized due to our current system. I would work to be better to them than they've been treated, but wise enough to know the more time a person has had in jail and the older they are, the less they can be helped.
my current ethical dilemma is the fact we can't diagnose APD until age 18 and typically they get released when they are juvinile offenders because of their charasmativ abilities. but thats for another topic

Those days are long gone wolf. When we did that, the service was low tech. You need to be educated to get into the service today. In fact, the average private in the marines has a higher degree of education than the average citizen. The military isn't a place to shuffle losers off to. And you seem to not realize that the military worked in its day because it was harsh and demanded disipline or one would get killed.
I refered to disipline as structure. I still wonder if there is a way to have lower educated soldier have some job. I know my cousin only had a GED when he became a soldier and didn't in his few years of service go back to school. obviously if they choose to make a career out of it, they'd need more education.

I asked for you to name some of the programs that our 7 trillion dollars have paid for that have delivered what they promised. Obviously, you can't. You admit that they have failed miserably and yet, you believe that sooner or later they will work. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity wolf.
no I said the results have varied. especially when it comes to drugs there are mixed results. some drugs are easier to kick than others. I also said we are doing much better with youth now when we establish counseling. you need to read more carefully

We don't have to view the suffering of one group as something that affects us all because the government has replaced the responsibilities of community wolf. A nameless faceless bureaucracy takes care of "those people". They get their checks and services from people who they don't know and who don't know them or anything about them beyond what they wrote on the forms, and that is all they want to know. Those bureaurcrats service thousands so are completely unable to get to know who they service.
and its people's job to get back in touch with the people around them. how they do so is up to them.
at the very least they can have some weird form of being selfish and help others only to benefit themselves; more working people and less people in jail benefits us all economicly

Community doesn't service, community helps because community knows who you are. We are no longer connected because of the very government programs that you support wolf. You and people like you are responsible for lost community and yet, you are completely unwilling to give up the very things that are destroying community while at the same time, you lament the lost community. Explain that sort of thinking to me wolf.
that doesn't make sense. having prograsm doesn't mean you must loose touch with people. sadly today people choose to only do programs and dettach. if you feel you can't be involved and have programs, thats your issue. no one else's

You deny human nature wolf. You believe that the government can force people to open up and mix with glee. The fact is that our social lives are deeply rooted in and organized upon religious loyalties or ethnic or sexual distinctions. We are human beings wolf and biologically, we operate in certain ways. You can deny human nature and use the force of government in an attempt to change it, but it won't work; it will only cause problems, as we have seen.
I never said anything about force. many people choose today to co-mingle and its a very good thing

Since modern liberalism has been forced upon us as a society, the close knit communities have been torn apart by government bureaucracies and political correctness. You want close knit communities that include everyone but that is not human nature wolf. You can have what we have, or go back to close knit communities that were founded on religious loyalties or ethnic distinctions but you can't have both. Clearly, you would rather have what we have than community because you continue to deny human nature in favor of the status quo.
it is possible to have diversity and unity. seperating ourselves doesn't aid the country as a whole. we are the melting pot and one nation, not sub groups that all work along side each other but stay seperate.

Those close knit communites that you claim were so great existed before modern liberalism was forced upon us wolf. They weren't perfect but they were better than what we have today. Modern liberalism has destroyed most of them.

You are dead wrong wolf. Take a ride out into the country where the conservatives live and still believe in community. Take a look at a place where neighbors still check up on the elderly and visit them just to talk. Take a look at a place where someone drops by to cut a sick or elderly neighbor's grass without being asked. Take a look at a place where people still have picknicks. Take a look at a place where when you go to the softball game, the people on each side know and work with the people on the other side and everyone in the stands as well. Take a look at a place where people have bake sales and BBQ's to raise money to help a neighbor and friend who is having problems and where people stop to buy a cake or a plate even when they aren't hungry because they want to help out. Take a look at a place where people know each other and where people care about each other and a place where people help each other out because that is what they are supposed to do.

Go visit a very small town wolf, or a small rural community. That is where the conservatives live together wolf and it is the last place where you can find that sense of belonging, and interdependence that you claim to long for. Conservativism is compassionate wolf and it isn't compassionate lip service, it is roll up your sleeves and help your neighbor compassionate and there are places where you can still see it in action every single day.

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I disagree. its liberalism that teaches compassion, unity, and acceptance of others.
whats the point of being kind only to your group?
its conservative areas where there are the most hate crimes and tolerated mistreatment of others. where people who are different are shunned.
true community accepts differences, views criminals as memebers who have gone astray and can be brought back, and can be peaceful, respectful and kind to one another despite any issues.

I am much more likely to trust my governement than my neighbors. especially if they are conservative. anyone who views money as being a high priority that people is not someone I want by me. anyone who claims to love this nation but loathe taxes is not someone I want in charage. anyone who is for social control and economic freedom (possible even the right for companies to be abusive to employees or harm people with their products) aren't people I associate with in a friendly manner.
its conservatives who think we need nannies to keep us 'moral'.