I think a hard cap at about 50% for the absolute top earners in the country should be the hardest left I'm ever willing to go, but I also believe in a non-regressive tax structure.

But a socialized health-care system wouldn't put us at 70% anyway, the highest in the world isn't that much.

Fair enough. The problem with that arrangement is that it leads to a situation in which once someone has the upper hand, they can keep it, no matter how deplorable their behavior or choices, and crush reasonable people who are on the bottom accordingly.

Okay: I'm saying I want a system that errs on the side of treating the undeserving rather than the side of mistreating those who do deserve better.




I do not concur. Tackling healthcare is the only feasible option for addressing that problem.

Quote:

Thats exactly what I'm saying, not that your plan outright sucks but that it would be a mistake to try to do that in today's atmosphere. First fix the things that need to be fixed to have the plan run smoothly. Then institute the plan. Just don't pretend fixing things are easy because your talking decades of work from millons of people.

We may simply have to agree to disagree here. I believe many of the problems you state as being underlying, are actually either symptoms of the underlying problem of shitty health care, or at best, part of a cycle which can best be addressed by getting to the care first.

Agreed, if I have to read any conjugation of the word "imply" again, my eyes will bleed, and there will be no competant healthcare to help me.

But my point is this:

Not THAT many people are unemployed here. If you think a major difference between working socialized systems in other countries and here is unemployment, then you ignore the facts.

*laughs* You do paint a picture. But do you really think people will whine more about care they recieve then the fact that they cannot get care at all?

Okay, I suppose I should say "Poor" rather than homeless.


Well if you have no solutions, help me by elaborating on what you think the problem is: How do you think politicians created the people you feel make socialized care a poor choice for this country?

Well, I would be glad to discuss your list of problems that fall into that category.

As for the example we have on the table, drug laws, I think that if socialized care were available, people who were addicted would have a far easier time getting treatment for that, which would do something to cut into the overall number of users.

I agree drug law needs to change, but I see no compelling reason these changes could not be done in tandem or in opposite order from what you're suggesting. In fact, one could argue that if the number of crackheads truly do end up placing a strain on the system, THAT will be a better incentive to get drug laws changed then any of our current ones.


Well I will agree that the "greed is good" mentality is a frequent crutch to our way of life, I do not feel laziness falls quite into the same category.

In either case, creating greater social supports will help people to understand the value of such support, and ultimately reduce the value we place on greed.


Fair enough. I agree we shoudln't do it in the wrong way. When you've illustrated either how to do it the right way, or at least better clarify why a socialized system would collapse if attempt to impliment it before fixing other societal ills, then I will give that perspective greater credence.


It was ruled unconstitutional in a large number of state cases, I'm surprised NC wasn't one of them. My liberal home of Washington State ruled against it.

Huh. So you think giving minorities jobs means they're unwilling to work?

What relevance does that have to anything? Let's say we cut out all welfare and gave that back to the taxpayer. Our taxes would go down 1%. That 1% would represent only 30 dollars to people in my tax bracket, or one dollar and twenty five cents every paycheck. That's what you're worried about? A measly two-fifty a month? Really? That's the breadbasket in which society's ills sit?

I feel that you have misplaced priorities, if this is how you really see the world. In order to support your view, you'd have to believe that practically no one was ever out of work for reasons beyond their control, even transitionally.

But you've JUST said that we DO have a choice in the form welfare. If we really see welfare as a viable alternative to working, then that coudln't be true.

Which is it? You can only pick one.


But right now we already pay too much for our healthcare. While welfare is only costing you 2.50 a month, healthcare costs average out to no less than 50 dollars a paycheck per person, and that's just if you're single with no kids.

Let me give you a choice: which of these two options is better?

1. Everyone working pays 50 a month for insurance, and those who do not work get no healthcare.

2. Everyone working pays 10 dollars a month for insurance, and those who do not work still get healthcare even though they haven't worked for it.

Is it really worth working against your own financial self-interest just to make sure lazy fucks get their comeupance? Are you the classic example of the American who sticks a fork in himself a hundred times just so no one can make a canoe out of his skin?


yes, but they aren't the ones in charge, now are they?


Of course I do. You seemed to be suggesting American laziness was a key sticking point for the debate. I feel that if I can dispell from you the arbitrary idea that we're lazy, I can move the healthcare discussion forward.

Really? I don't, so that can only lead me to believe that both of our anecdotal evidences are inadmissable. (I put more of mine below)

Okay, what ways? We're less taxed and less regulated then most countries, and we even have a good number of freedoms that many others do not. How is our government pressing down on us in the big picture? Perhaps pressing down is the wrong phrase, would you understand manipulating better?

That's a classic divide between liberal and conservative. I've met too many good people in my life to believe it. Some of them were even poor.

I look forward to it.